Sump Flow

crumbletop

New member
Wow. All of the posting lately about return pumps and flow got me thinking (sometimes a good thing, but usually not ;))

As usual in this hobby there is room for lots of variability, but in general I have come up with the following information.

<b>Sump only (no refuge) with display draining to sump:</b>
Calfo, somewhere burried in <a href='http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=554786' target=_blank>this thread</a> recommends low flow from the display overflow in order to not mix up the surface gunk. Apparently the surface gunk, when remixed doesn't get skimmed efficiently. This, along with other posts on wetwebmedia (and perhaps other places) seem to form the basis for recommending a low flow return pump. Flow through the sump doesn't matter too much if it isn't being used as a fuge.

<b>Sump with tank draining directly to skimmer:</b>
It would seem that mixing of DOCs wouldn't matter if you directly feed a skimmer from the drain. In this case, a low flow return pump wouldn't really matter from a skimming efficiency standpoint. I suppose the flow from the return pump at whatever head would need to be somewhat matched to the skimmer input flow.

<b>Sump that has a fuge section:</b>
In this case, the recommendation is to have a minimum of 10x and ideally more flow in the fuge. I think this is best documented <a href='http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=462212' target=_blank>here</a>. The 10x - 20x (or more) flow in this case refers to <em>fuge</em> turnover and doesn't include the display volume. Based on my cursory review (this could be wrong) people like Anthony Calfo recommend skimming prior to running display water to a fuge section -- to allow the skimmer to get as much of the nasties as possible. I'm not entirely sure about that, though. I've seen "turf scrubbers" that process just the raw water. The reason for the large turnover in the fuge is to maintain a healthy growth of macroalgae.

In this case it would seem the above return pump considerations would still apply -- i.e. If you are directly feeding a skimmer, then you can have more return pump, and if you aren't, lower flow from the display is recommended.

In all of the above, I believe the intent is to optimize the export of nutrients. You can, of course, export nutrients with high flow from the display to the fuge -- but that may not be an optimal setup. Optimum is not necessarily the goal, as a healthy tank is mainly the goal -- so lots of variation should still work fine.

Return pumps have to spend energy overcoming gravity, and so are less efficient at creating flow than they would be at 0' head (or close to 0') as would be the case for a closed loop or power heads. As I see it, the other possible benefits of lower flow return pumps are:

1) less energy useage (lower $ per month).
2) less heat introduced to the tank.
3) less issue with microbubbles going back to the display from skimmer or drain.
4) less noise.

In the case of a low flow return pump, display flow could be achieved by a closed loop or powerheads. In the sump, if sump only you may not need any additional flow. If a fuge is present, you could achieve that by power heads, a closed loop, or branching off some of the return flow (and using a larger return pump) so that the flow from return to display is still low.

All in all, it seems that in an optimized system the following factors are part of the equation:

1) the method of skimming
2) the capcity and size of the skimmer
3) the size of the sump
4) the presence or absence of a fuge
5) desire to reduce heat in the system
6) noise

This hobby is complex and challenging (part of why I like it). I thought I would throw this out there to hopefully get a discussion started and to get some input from some of you more seasoned reefers. Things are rarely black and white, and this is a case in point.

If you've read this far, thanks for sticking with me :D

Jack
 
I personally like a high turnover rate through the sump. The reason being is because the tank/sump control volume is not safely assumed to be well mixed. If you dose into your sump, try dosing your alk suppliment and taking a measurement at time 0, 1 min, 5 min, 10 min, 20 min, and 40 min. You will see that it takes about 20 minutes to equilibrate if you have about 10X turnover per hour through your sump (what I am running). So an even slower turnover rate would take longer to equilibrate. So if you think of it in terms of skimming. If you have a toxin released in the tank from a coral or fish, I will take a minimum of 20 minutes to get removed, but most likely much longer. For this reason, I wish I had a much larger sump and overflow to increase turnover. But as you mentioned, a larger turnover rate, increases noise, heat, and electricity use.
 
My sump/fuge combo is low flow. I have 1 1,600 gph pump split between 2 returns with added head pressure so best case senario is....about 4-5x turnover. The rest of the flow in the tank comes from a huge closed loop with a sequence dart pump pushing 3,600 gph at about 2 ft head so it should be enouph to do what I need. That is if I ever get the thing running! :lol: The Oceans motions is sitting beside the tank and the dart is on a big brown truck somewhere in transit! Hopefully it will be up and running this weekend.

I wonder if I should somehow add flow to the fuge side via a few power heads? It is very low flow but seems to be growing good.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8262939#post8262939 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by c_stowers
I personally like a high turnover rate through the sump. The reason being is because the tank/sump control volume is not safely assumed to be well mixed. If you dose into your sump, try dosing your alk suppliment and taking a measurement at time 0, 1 min, 5 min, 10 min, 20 min, and 40 min. You will see that it takes about 20 minutes to equilibrate if you have about 10X turnover per hour through your sump (what I am running). So an even slower turnover rate would take longer to equilibrate. So if you think of it in terms of skimming. If you have a toxin released in the tank from a coral or fish, I will take a minimum of 20 minutes to get removed, but most likely much longer. For this reason, I wish I had a much larger sump and overflow to increase turnover. But as you mentioned, a larger turnover rate, increases noise, heat, and electricity use.

I think slow equilibration could be beneficial. For example, if I dose alk in my sump, a slow pushing from the sump into the display will allow the display tank to more slowly equilibrate to the increased alk, which I think would be better on the corals. I see your point on toxin removal, but I see that as less of an issue.

Here's a TOTM low sump flow. 320 gallon display with 100 gallon sump. Flow through sump is 100 gph.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/totm/index.php
 
Slow equilibratiion of alk and cal suppliments is definately a good thing. But a sump turnover rate of less than 1X is insane IMO. In this case, you would probably end up saturating your skimmer with clean water.

As far as toxins not being much of an issue. Wait until you get a large tang and it drops a load in the middle of your reef. You will be wanting water to get to your skimmer as fast as it can.
 
This has been hashed out many times, mainly in the equipment and Reef Discussion forums from what I have seen. Lots of people advocate flow of around 3 - 5 times tank turnover. I would call this "traditional". Others, including myself like a turnover rate higher than that(~10 or so)mainly for the reasons Chris mentioned. Both seem to get good results as long as the reefer knows what he/she is doing. A lot also depends on the overall reefing method being employed. You don't want 3 x's turnover going through your sump if you are BB and you don't want 10 if you are trying to employ a cryptic zone. It's that old there are a million ways to run a reef tank thing:D
Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8264068#post8264068 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by c_stowers
As far as toxins not being much of an issue. Wait until you get a large tang and it drops a load in the middle of your reef. You will be wanting water to get to your skimmer as fast as it can.

LOL -- That gave me a good laugh.

Thanks for the input, guys.
 
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