Sump levels

[Watchm@n]

Hi Guys,

Hopefully someone can assist.. I've done a few searches and tried a few things but still have the issue.

somehow, the levels in my sump magically rises and falls.. this is defo not evap as it would only fall, right?... some days the sump level will rise and corresponding to that the level in the display falls and I get the gurgling from the display/overflow... then the lets say the very next day, the water in the sump will drop dramatically and then corresponding to that, the display level rises and top up gets used up. I've since turned off the top off to avoid my salinity going nuts... I still have the same issue since turning top up off...random rise and fall of sump levels...

after a few searches, I followed what others have recommended, cleaning out my pump.. I couldn't see anything obvious in there but still cleaned it out...

the tank is new.. running for 3 months... don't think this is just a new pump "breaking itself in" as some have suggested on other posts that I have searched...

only thing I can think of is that there is a snail that has managed to climb over the grill and get into one of the pipes going to the sump. and every time he moves maybe ends up blocking the pipe or allowing more space which would correspond with the rise and fall levels...

does this sound feasible... anyone else experience something similar and how did you resolve it or how do you get ride of snails that do get into the plumbing...

im worried that that the sump is gonna either get flooded or run dry :uhoh2:

thanks!!

 

[s@ndm@n]

Hi Guys, Hopefully someone can assist.. I've done a few searches and tried a few things but still have the issue. somehow, the levels in my sump magically rises and falls.. this is defo not evap as it would only fall, right?... some days the sump level will rise and corresponding to that the level in the display falls and I get the gurgling from the display/overflow... then the lets say the very next day, the water in the sump will drop dramatically and then corresponding to that, the display level rises and top up gets used up. I've since turned off the top off to avoid my salinity going nuts... I still have the same issue since turning top up off...random rise and fall of sump levels... after a few searches, I followed what others have recommended, cleaning out my pump.. I couldn't see anything obvious in there but still cleaned it out... the tank is new.. running for 3 months... don't think this is just a new pump "breaking itself in" as some have suggested on other posts that I have searched... only thing I can think of is that there is a snail that has managed to climb over the grill and get into one of the pipes going to the sump. and every time he moves maybe ends up blocking the pipe or allowing more space which would correspond with the rise and fall levels... does this sound feasible... anyone else experience something similar and how did you resolve it or how do you get ride of snails that do get into the plumbing... im worried that that the sump is gonna either get flooded or run dry :uhoh2: thanks!!

Sound like you are going in and out of siphon, how do you have your overflow setup?

 

[Watchm@n]

Sound like you are going in and out of siphon, how do you have your overflow setup?

hi s@ndm@n

thanks for the reply... but what does that mean exactly. sorry am a noob :rollfaceob

set up durso method using 40ml pipe.
the levels were all fine from the beginning no issues until about 3 weeks ago it started varying on a daily basis as described in my original post.

Thanks

 

[sleepydoc]

I'm assuming you don't have an auto top off system installed, and assuming you have a 'standard' baffle setup in your sump (overflow flows down to the sump, water in the sump flows over one or more baffles to the return chamber before getting pumped back up to the display)

The level in the display is generally held constant by the overflow weir height.
The level in the overflow is dependent on the rate of flow in (determined by your return pump) and the rate of flow out (flowing down the durso)
The level in the first chambers of the sump is determined by the baffle heights (unless the total water volume rises above them)
Assuming the first 3 are constant, the level in the return chamber is the only one that will change, normally due to evaporation.

In the absence of an auto top off system, the total amount of water in the tank is relatively constant and slowly decreasing with evaporation.

If the water level in return chamber goes down significantly, it has to have either evaporated or gone to another chamber. The only chamber that will vary under normal circumstances is the overflow due to decreased outflow. Snails, algae, and other critters are the general culprits.

If the water level in the return chamber goes up, you either added water to the system, or the water level in the overflow went down and that water got 'transferred' to the return chamber.

Watch the water level in your return chamber I'm betting you will see it vary along with the sump level. Your guess of a snail occluding the system is the most likely guess. Do you see snails in your sump?

 

[Watchm@n]

I'm assuming you don't have an auto top off system installed, and assuming you have a 'standard' baffle setup in your sump (overflow flows down to the sump, water in the sump flows over one or more baffles to the return chamber before getting pumped back up to the display)

The level in the display is generally held constant by the overflow weir height.
The level in the overflow is dependent on the rate of flow in (determined by your return pump) and the rate of flow out (flowing down the durso)
The level in the first chambers of the sump is determined by the baffle heights (unless the total water volume rises above them)
Assuming the first 3 are constant, the level in the return chamber is the only one that will change, normally due to evaporation.

In the absence of an auto top off system, the total amount of water in the tank is relatively constant and slowly decreasing with evaporation.

If the water level in return chamber goes down significantly, it has to have either evaporated or gone to another chamber. The only chamber that will vary under normal circumstances is the overflow due to decreased outflow. Snails, algae, and other critters are the general culprits.

If the water level in the return chamber goes up, you either added water to the system, or the water level in the overflow went down and that water got 'transferred' to the return chamber.

Watch the water level in your return chamber I'm betting you will see it vary along with the sump level. Your guess of a snail occluding the system is the most likely guess. Do you see snails in your sump?

hi sleepdoc...
yes all of the above are correct.. except I do have auto top up which I turned off till I can sort this issue because everytime the water drops in the sump it tops up (which is obviously what its supposed to do) so I turned it off to keep my salinity stable.

the return chamber is the one that is varying from day to day...
I had a look and there are no snails in the sump... im guessing he is still stuck in the pipe somewhere :furious: but I have no way to tell where or if it is indeed the problem... should have used see through pipes :hmm5:

is there any way to try to flush this sucker out so I can be sure it is a snail...

and can some one please explain what going in and out of siphon means

thanks for all the replies so far!

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

The return chamber is the place where variation will show as it should be.
Unfortunately You will have to snake the pipes unless someone has a better way.
Going in & out of siphon means -- the pump will run itself out of water & restart after the water level comes back & the pump starts pumping again.

 

[Watchm@n]

The return chamber is the place where variation will show as it should be.
Unfortunately You will have to snake the pipes unless someone has a better way.
Going in & out of siphon means -- the pump will run itself out of water & restart after the water level comes back & the pump starts pumping again.

thanks!
oh right, so the pump shuts off when there is no water... I was worried about that happening when I wasn't there during the day while at work or at night when asleep.... thought it would just keep running and burn itself out! on the flip side.. I could still end up with a flood :uhoh3:

snake the pipes... guess so, but how do you do that at the 90 degree bends etc...
also im guessing it would eventually end up at the ball valve if I managed to get it loose at any point. damn snails!!!

 

[RWEngineer]

thanks!
oh right, so the pump shuts off when there is no water... I was worried about that happening when I wasn't there during the day while at work or at night when asleep.... thought it would just keep running and burn itself out! on the flip side.. I could still end up with a flood :uhoh3:

The pump is not going to turn off when there is no water unless you have added some type of control.

 

[Watchm@n]

The pump is not going to turn off when there is no water unless you have added some type of control.

I haven't...:sad2:

 

[sleepydoc]

If you are running a durso you are always 'out of siphon.' Bean/Herbie overflow plumbing depends on one of the pipes being a full siphon. If the siphon breaks for any reason and air enters the pipe, the flow in the (normally) siphon pipe drops significantly. This doesn't apply to a Durso as it always has air in it by design.

Do you have a valve at the bottom that you can open up? How are the pipes configured/connected? Are they all glued or are there threaded fittings that can be taken apart? Are there any reducing bushings for things to get stuck at?


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[Watchm@n]

If you are running a durso you are always 'out of siphon.' Bean/Herbie overflow plumbing depends on one of the pipes being a full siphon. If the siphon breaks for any reason and air enters the pipe, the flow in the (normally) siphon pipe drops significantly. This doesn't apply to a Durso as it always has air in it by design.

Do you have a valve at the bottom that you can open up? How are the pipes configured/connected? Are they all glued or are there threaded fittings that can be taken apart? Are there any reducing bushings for things to get stuck at?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

there is a ball valve before it enters the sump...
I closed this off to let it build up and then opened full in the hope that the rush of water would flush anything out... nothing came out. I marked the valve so that I could put it back to the way it was so that the levels would be back to when I first started... before this problem occurred.

they are all glued together with some 90 degree bends.

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

Might have to go in from both ends, but you will have to negotiate the 90's.
If not possible the only other way is to cut the pipe & put in a union or two.

 

[Jayreefer]

Have you checked to make sure your durso drain pipe has a vent hole? Mine gets a bit of salt creep in it and clogs up the vent hole. When the vent clogs the drain siphons.

 

[Dmize]

We had a similar problem until we installed a small ATO. It's been the best 100 bucks we have spent on the tank!

 

[Watchm@n]

Have you checked to make sure your durso drain pipe has a vent hole? Mine gets a bit of salt creep in it and clogs up the vent hole. When the vent clogs the drain siphons.

where should the vent hole be?

 

[Watchm@n]

We had a similar problem until we installed a small ATO. It's been the best 100 bucks we have spent on the tank!

hi Dmize
i have an ato.. i only turned it off because of this issue. i dont think its top up related becuase the levels are rising and falling... not just falling.

 

[Fish'InMN]

there is a ball valve before it enters the sump...
I closed this off to let it build up and then opened full in the hope that the rush of water would flush anything out... nothing came out. I marked the valve so that I could put it back to the way it was so that the levels would be back to when I first started... before this problem occurred.

they are all glued together with some 90 degree bends.

You need to either diagram or very explicitly describe your plumbing because this post makes me think you have a durso drain that you are restricting with a ball valve.