Sump pump setup

[jerm_kozac]

This is a great thread. Love the progression on location and setup of the return pump. One other point: not the end of the world, but you are going to experience a huge head loss due to those 90 elbows so close to the pump and so close to each other. I was a water geek in school, and those fluid dynamic classes were my favorite. You would gain a ton of efficiency if you replaced those with some 45s or even better used a flex line. Just be sure the flex was smooth on the inside to minimize turbulence.

 

[jerm_kozac]

also, If you gave some dimensions between the pump and elbows and total height, I could give you some numbers on the efficiency you'd actually gain.

 

[awais98]

also, If you gave some dimensions between the pump and elbows and total height, I could give you some numbers on the efficiency you'd actually gain.

Hi jerm_kozac

Thank you for your observation.
I initially tried to keep the return pump in a straight line, but sump placing became an issue. I also tried flex pipe to prevent 2 elbows but no matter what I did, in an hour or two I saw a drop of water at the barb thread. I did not want continuous issue, so that wouldn't work and had to put in 2 elbows.

My pump is pan world 200PS, rated at 1750 gph with max head at 39 feet.
I put that numbers in the head loss calculator , with a head of 15 feet from basement floor to DT in living room with 6 elbows, 1" PVC, it gave me an output of about 1200 gph. That made me feel satisfied.

But there you have the details, would love to hear your analysis. I'm afraid I might just begin to replumb!!!! :mixed: OCD in me....

 

[awais98]

This is a great thread. Love the progression on location and setup of the return pump. One other point: not the end of the world, but you are going to experience a huge head loss due to those 90 elbows so close to the pump and so close to each other. I was a water geek in school, and those fluid dynamic classes were my favorite. You would gain a ton of efficiency if you replaced those with some 45s or even better used a flex line. Just be sure the flex was smooth on the inside to minimize turbulence.

Tell me about the flex PVC, I had used a 1.5" in the overflow at one time, but at the connections, didn't feel confident it wouldn't leak, so replaced it.
Tell me otherwise and I may just try it, lol:fun5:

 

[jerm_kozac]

When I say flexible pvc, I mean... well, flexible pvc. lol. Not corrugated or anything else, but pvc you actually prime and glue into fitting. It is sometimes called spaflex. I wouldn't imagine any sort of barbed fitting lasting too long on the high pressure side of that pump.

Another option would be to bend straight pieces of pvc pipe. It isn't as hard as it might seem, and makes for very low resistance as well. You basically just need to plug the pipe, attach a compressor, heat it up and bend it. The wider section you heat, the bigger and "better" the radius will be. In my experience it is best to apply somewhere in the neighborhood of 22psi to the pipe. You need to heat it up uniformly, and once the pressure starts to bubble up that section, you are ready to bend.

 

[uncleof6]

Spa flex ain't what it is cracked up to be. For aquarium applications, you are better off using hard pipe. Use 45° rather than 90° whenever possible. If you twist spa flex into a double 45° "s" on the way up, the friction loss will be just the same as if you use hard pipe--it is just way harder to figure that out. It is complicated.

Also, if you don't know how to heat bend spa flex, it will frustrate you--as it is not very flexible at all. Just for grins, you can also heat bend hard pipe. Oh, sorry, I just noticed jerm mentioned that. Of course I have no concept where he came up with the 22 psi thing............and if the heat is bubbling the pipe--you overcooked it. It is an art, as well as a science. I can heat bend PVC sch 40 and SDR-21 without anything else other than a heat gun. You just got to know what you are doing.

Best way, and least complex way, to minimize friction loss is to upsize the return plumbing one size above the pump outlet size, don't use "tees" into the branch, and don't use 90° fittings unless you absolutely must, like to get over the rim of the tank.

 

[e43devil]

Spa flex ain't what it is cracked up to be. For aquarium applications, you are better off using hard pipe. Use 45° rather than 90° whenever possible. If you twist spa flex into a double 45° "s" on the way up, the friction loss will be just the same as if you use hard pipe--it is just way harder to figure that out. It is complicated.

Thinwall spa flex is incredibly flexible. I'm not sure what experiences you have had with flex to come to this conclusion. FWIW, 2x 45's typically exhibit greater losses than one 90... unless your use 2.5" or greater pipe.....

 

[uncleof6]

Thinwall spa flex is incredibly flexible. I'm not sure what experiences you have had with flex to come to this conclusion. FWIW, 2x 45's typically exhibit greater losses than one 90... unless your use 2.5" or greater pipe.....

2 - 45° fittings are close enough to be considered equal to 1 - 90&deg fitting. Well the heck you say, what is the point.... typically to get out of the stand, folks use 2 - 90° fittings (if they don't use 45° to begin with.) You try to use 2 - 45° fittings to replace 1 - 90&deg fitting, you are wasting your time. Simple logic--no need to do math: 2 -&45deg; fittings is < (1/2) 2 - 90° fittings, friction loss wise. I really don't know where folks get their information--must be wiki..... I am not getting into a topical debate on the relative merits of spa flex vs hard pipe--it would be a useless debate.

 

[e43devil]

Depending on your size pipe you could be looking at a 10% difference in friction loss... we don't need to discuss under .5" pipe. I agree that in our applications it is fairly negligible, but then don't start discussing the effects of atmospheric pressure on our systems plumbing....

It is useless to state that a product or method has no place in our hobby, and back your argument up with "it would be a useless debate".

Between everyone ripping people for not building stands out of 72' of 2x4s and overly critiquing plumbing methods......

For the record most of my knowledge has come from books and teachers, but discounting the knowledge that can be obtained online...... well here we are....

To the OP good job getting your pump configured in a more reliable way.

 

[jerm_kozac]

hey uncleof6.... Where exactly do you get your information from?

I find it strange for you to critique me on something I obviously have experience with, and you apparently know, nothing, or very little about.

Spa flex is very strong and reliable when installed properly. It has a lower pressure rating then sched40 pvc, but more than enough for our applications.

On a side note, and to and some useful information to my post: the farther apart you put the two 45° elbows, the better. After a liquid passes through a 45 it becomes quite "turbulent", if the second 45 is too close, it will cause even more friction and heat. Nothing to redesign your system because of or knock down walls. But just something to keep in the back of your mind while designing.

 

[uncleof6]

hey uncleof6.... Where exactly do you get your information from?

I find it strange for you to critique me on something I obviously have experience with, and you apparently know, nothing, or very little about.

Spa flex is very strong and reliable when installed properly. It has a lower pressure rating then sched40 pvc, but more than enough for our applications.

On a side note, and to and some useful information to my post: the farther apart you put the two 45° elbows, the better. After a liquid passes through a 45 it becomes quite "turbulent", if the second 45 is too close, it will cause even more friction and heat. Nothing to redesign your system because of or knock down walls. But just something to keep in the back of your mind while designing.

Excuse me? Stick to the issue, and like I said, I am not going to engage you in a topical debate on the relative merits of spa flex--it is a useless debate, that will just waste time and energy: mine. It is not worth it. This thread is not about how strong or reliable spa flex is.

 

[jerm_kozac]

I was just wondering if your information was better than mine? I was staying on topic and offering some advice and different ideas. You, and all of your wisdom, were just shooting me down. I couldn't tell before if you were a ***** or if it just came off that way. Now I know.

 

[uncleof6]

Well perhaps I am, but I don't really feel a need to call folks names. I go after the information, not the individual. This is an open forum, if you post something, be prepared to have it shot down, if it is suspect information, often even if it is not. The one thing you DON'T do is attack others. Put on your big boy pants, and let the thread continue without personal attacks.

 

[awais98]

Hi Uncleof6,
Well, I though I was done with the plumbing.... and my tank is cycling.... and my 2 ocellaris are in the QT :bounce3:
You think I should really bend a hard pvc pipe instead of the 2 elbows near the pump outlet?
I had bought the spa flex for the overflows but didn't like how they were so inflexible and I though there would always be a danger of them leaking out even with the cement.....if any torque is applied on them. That's why I dumped them, then.
Shouldn't 1200 gph be good enough ( for DT 120g) for most corals too? If I would still need more flow...wave maker would help? No?

Spa flex ain't what it is cracked up to be. For aquarium applications, you are better off using hard pipe. Use 45° rather than 90° whenever possible. If you twist spa flex into a double 45° "s" on the way up, the friction loss will be just the same as if you use hard pipe--it is just way harder to figure that out. It is complicated.

Also, if you don't know how to heat bend spa flex, it will frustrate you--as it is not very flexible at all. Just for grins, you can also heat bend hard pipe. Oh, sorry, I just noticed jerm mentioned that. Of course I have no concept where he came up with the 22 psi thing............and if the heat is bubbling the pipe--you overcooked it. It is an art, as well as a science. I can heat bend PVC sch 40 and SDR-21 without anything else other than a heat gun. You just got to know what you are doing.

Best way, and least complex way, to minimize friction loss is to upsize the return plumbing one size above the pump outlet size, don't use "tees" into the branch, and don't use 90° fittings unless you absolutely must, like to get over the rim of the tank.

 

[awais98]

Sorry for the late replies. Just got some time off work.
I had bought some spaflex for the overflows but its seems so inflexible and hard that I was afraid any torque applied on them would cause a leak at a cemented joint....
You think I really need to bend a hard PVC pipe???
I thought 1200 gph in my 120G DT should be enough. :bounce2:

When I say flexible pvc, I mean... well, flexible pvc. lol. Not corrugated or anything else, but pvc you actually prime and glue into fitting. It is sometimes called spaflex. I wouldn't imagine any sort of barbed fitting lasting too long on the high pressure side of that pump.

Another option would be to bend straight pieces of pvc pipe. It isn't as hard as it might seem, and makes for very low resistance as well. You basically just need to plug the pipe, attach a compressor, heat it up and bend it. The wider section you heat, the bigger and "better" the radius will be. In my experience it is best to apply somewhere in the neighborhood of 22psi to the pipe. You need to heat it up uniformly, and once the pressure starts to bubble up that section, you are ready to bend.

 

[uncleof6]

Hi Uncleof6,
Well, I though I was done with the plumbing.... and my tank is cycling.... and my 2 ocellaris are in the QT :bounce3:
You think I should really bend a hard pvc pipe instead of the 2 elbows near the pump outlet?

No I don't. But a single 90° and ending with a 45° into the tank (would need a short length of pipe from the 45° to just below the water level,) is not unreasonable.

I had bought the spa flex for the overflows but didn't like how they were so inflexible and I though there would always be a danger of them leaking out even with the cement.....if any torque is applied on them. That's why I dumped them, then.

In reality 6 one way, half dozen the other. Spa flex really isn't what it is cracked up to be for our uses. On the other hand it is not evil, as some other common practices are.

Shouldn't 1200 gph be good enough ( for DT 120g) for most corals too? If I would still need more flow...wave maker would help? No?

40 - 60 - 100x is not unheard of. 10x through the sump, which for you is 1200 gph, and the "remaining flow" using power-heads. However, I think it is more the quality of in-tank flow than quantity, that makes the difference. Too many uninformed hobbyists assume that skimping on the return flow, and making up for it with in-tank flow is ok. It isn't, it is illogical: the two operations do different jobs. However, because water is taken and returned to the top of the tank (unlike old days when it was taken from the bottom and returned to the top, or vice versa) we need a more thoughtful approach to what is really going on, and the effect it has on our approach to flow, and what the system is needing.

 

[awais98]

No I don't. But a single 90° and ending with a 45° into the tank (would need a short length of pipe from the 45° to just below the water level,) is not unreasonable.


In reality 6 one way, half dozen the other. Spa flex really isn't what it is cracked up to be for our uses. On the other hand it is not evil, as some other common practices are.

40 - 60 - 100x is not unheard of. 10x through the sump, which for you is 1200 gph, and the "remaining flow" using power-heads. However, I think it is more the quality of in-tank flow than quantity, that makes the difference. Too many uninformed hobbyists assume that skimping on the return flow, and making up for it with in-tank flow is ok. It isn't, it is illogical: the two operations do different jobs. However, because water is taken and returned to the top of the tank (unlike old days when it was taken from the bottom and returned to the top, or vice versa) we need a more thoughtful approach to what is really going on, and the effect it has on our approach to flow, and what the system is needing.

Thank you for your superquick reply :wave:
I will definitely look at my return line and see how I can improve on it. Sorry Im OCD:dance:


Im glad Im not using spaflex. I just did not like it. It is heavy, cant bent, cant keep it straight, difficult to work with.... yuck, lol :deadhorse1:


:worried2: 40-100x... wooohoooo, I didnt know that. All i knoew was upto 20x for sps.......
Currently while cycling, i see a 'lot' of flow in the tank.....when I graduate to SPS Ill see if I need to do anything more for the flow.

Uncle, another question, when I do get corals, do they also need to be in QT for a while? If I have to, Im wondering how Im gonna maintain them there..... my QT is a 10g cheap readymade tank with a hang on filter, heater and simple lights .....:hmm1: