Sump Size

[75mixedreef]

The main issue with the check valves is that if you have any need or use for them, then it can and most likely will be a problem. You want your sump to be able to hold all the water that can drain from your overflow and siphon back though your return line. You should, but don't have to, make it so your sump can handle all of this without changing the depth of your skimmer chamber. You do not want to plan on the check valve being used to keep the skimmer chamber level constant because when the valve fails, your skimmer will bubble over and cause problems. It might not be a flood but it is still a problem.

It is best to run your system without having to rely on components that are proven to be unreliable. Rather than spending the money on buying the check valve, why not just do it the right way and go for a $1 per gallon sale or something.

 

[SFish]

Thanks for the reply.

With regard to the pump, I ordered a Vectra L1 DC (3100 GPH). I figured 3-5x turnover is (roughly) 600-1000 gph (taking total volume into account, not just DT). With the head pressure, fittings, etc. I figured this would still give me a little more muscle than I need and allow me to run the pump a little lower than 100%. Obviously I'll have to dial it in once I get everything set up.

Thanks for mentioning the ball valve. This is my first reef tank, and my first sump. So I will be going slow and no doubt making numerous trips to the store for plumbing parts. But, I'll get there.

That should be a good pump and 3 to 5x should be fine. The nice thing is DC pumps are controllable. A 40 breeder if you can fit it will fit most skimmers nice by the way.

 

[Drummindot]

All good. I take every bit of input. I wasn't trying to be argumentative either, just didn't understand. But I think we're on the same page now.



So, Loctite return outlets just barely below the surface, wye check valves cleaned and maintained regularly... is there some other precaution you would add? I'm an IT guy, not a plumber But I'm learning.

Lol, I hear ya. I'm more of a software kind of person too. My husband did all the plumbing on our tank and did a great job so he's more the one for specific pointers than I. I shared the thread with him. He's at work so may not be able to chime in until late tonight.


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[Elricsfate]

The main issue with the check valves is that if you have any need or use for them, then it can and most likely will be a problem. You want your sump to be able to hold all the water that can drain from your overflow and siphon back though your return line. You should, but don't have to, make it so your sump can handle all of this without changing the depth of your skimmer chamber. You do not want to plan on the check valve being used to keep the skimmer chamber level constant because when the valve fails, your skimmer will bubble over and cause problems. It might not be a flood but it is still a problem.

It is best to run your system without having to rely on components that are proven to be unreliable. Rather than spending the money on buying the check valve, why not just do it the right way and go for a $1 per gallon sale or something.

Well reason #1 would be...I just spent $700 on a sump from Synergy Reef. #2 would be, I already bought two of the check valves. I will probably actually install 3. 1 below each return outlet, and one closer to the pump. The odds of all three failing at the same time are pretty slim.

However, your point about the skimmer is a good one. So I will make sure I program the Apex so that if the return pump is off the skimmer is also off. Obviously in the case of a power outage both would be off anyway.

With regard to the sump holding the backflow in the event of check valve failure, if the returns are placed 1" below the surface then the most backflow there would be is approximately 7.5 gallons of water, plus whatever is in the pipe.

However, you guys are right about being extra careful. Which is why I ran a 1 inch drain line from my kitchen sink, through a cabinet and two walls, and ran it down the length of the wall behind my tank. I'm going to drill the sump, install a bulkhead, and plumb it directly into this drain. Then, if the water ever reaches the top of the sump it will simply run down the drain rather than onto my carpet.

Please don't take my part of this conversation as being disagreeable. I am finding new things to take into account through the process of this conversation.

Thank you all

 

[SFish]

I don't get it why do you have 3 return lines?

 

[Elricsfate]

I don't get it why do you have 3 return lines?

I don't. I have 2. One on each side of the tank. But they will be fed with two pipes that come together at a tee. So, if I put one check valve before the tee (where it is just one pipe), and one below each return bulkhead, that would be three. If any one of those three fail, no siphon. If both top valves fail, still no siphon. It would have to be a simultaneous failure of one of the top valves and the bottom valve for water to run backwards all the way to the sump.

Just my thoughts on using redundancy to protect the tank/house.

 

[thegrun]

There is nothing wrong with using a check valve. You can get by without it though that being said I don't see a problem with using it as part of a multi system approach. A few people probably had a flood and now are totally against them. Yes they can get stuck and have to be maintained but so does everything else we use. The pipe can still be back flushed you would just have to designe it with the use of a ball valve so the check valve can be removed. The other thing to take into account is it will probably slow your pump down some but we are usually over sizing our pumps anyway and have to dial them back.

The issue with check valves as you posted is that they all eventually fail, 100% guaranteed. It doesn't make much sense to me to design a system around a part that will fail unless there is still enough room in your sump to accommodate all the drain down water; and if you do that why install the check valve in the first place, they add resistance to your return pump.

 

[SFish]

I don't. I have 2. One on each side of the tank. But they will be fed with two pipes that come together at a tee. So, if I put one check valve before the tee (where it is just one pipe), and one below each return bulkhead, that would be three. If any one of those three fail, no siphon. If both top valves fail, still no siphon. It would have to be a simultaneous failure of one of the top valves and the bottom valve for water to run backwards all the way to the sump.

Just my thoughts on using redundancy to protect the tank/house.

Interesting set up

 

[SFish]

The issue with check valves as you posted is that they all eventually fail, 100% guaranteed. It doesn't make much sense to me to design a system around a part that will fail unless there is still enough room in your sump to accommodate all the drain down water; and if you do that why install the check valve in the first place, they add resistance to your return pump.

Everything fails 100% it's only a matter of time. I don't think anyone has a pump that runs the perfect amount of flow that they need so a little extra resistance doesn't really matter. As I said you don't need it but they can be used as a first line of defense. we use redundancy on a lot of things in this hobby. Lets say you have a siphon break and it becomes pluged what is your back up? Lets say we put the return pipe 1" below the water line and it gets bumped or some how falls down again what is your back up? These things are probably unlikely but anything can happen. There are two recent post of tanks on this site that had them with in the last few days.

 

[ericarenee]

Not the overflows, the return. It is the return that back siphons water out of the tank into the sump when the pump turns off. But the rest of your point is correct, need to be sure to set it up right or it will flood, and no check valves.

YES over flow and Return both need to be setup correctly return with a siphon break and over flow set to not Leak back..

 

[ericarenee]

I don't understand how putting a valve in a pipe that prevents water from flowing backwards is "asking for a flood". This is exactly the plumbing setup that BRS uses on the BRS160, which is the model I am basing this build off of.

The valves will be directly below the return bulkheads, so the rest of the water in the pipe can flow out. The returns will be at/near the surface of the water, so as was stated only an inch or so (7.5 gallons) could drain back in the event of valve failure.

I am not "asking for advice and then refusing to take it". I am open to the thought that my sump is too small. But I am not getting this whole idea that placing a check valve in a pipe is asking to flood my house. Yes, if I just plumbed it however I wanted and didn't take the possibility of losing the return pump into account, and then relied solely on the check valves for safety, I could see that. But that would be stupid...and I'm not stupid.

I ordered the Georg Fischer Wye Check Valve from BRS, *specifically* because it was included in the BRS160 build, and covered specifically by Ryan in the video on plumbing the tank.

The check valves are *a* safety feature. Not *the* safety feature.

A Check valve is a mechanical element that you must always clean and check to insure its working correctly.. If you count on it as a means to prevent your sump from over flowing on a power outage eventually its going to fail .. If your system is setup properly its a :WEAK LINK" That does not need to be there. its another thing you do not have to worry about

The only one Benefit of a check valve on your return pump.. If you shut your pump down for feeding or maintenance it will take less time to fill the tank and recover to normal operation.. .

Sorry for not explaining my reasons. of course you can use one if you wish . just be sure to clean it monthly maybe weekly and check it daily

 

[Elricsfate]

A Check valve is a mechanical element that you must always clean and check to insure its working correctly.. If you count on it as a means to prevent your sump from over flowing on a power outage eventually its going to fail .. If your system is setup properly its a :WEAK LINK" That does not need to be there. its another thing you do not have to worry about

The only one Benefit of a check valve on your return pump.. If you shut your pump down for feeding or maintenance it will take less time to fill the tank and recover to normal operation.. .

Sorry for not explaining my reasons. of course you can use one if you wish . just be sure to clean it monthly maybe weekly and check it daily

Yeah. That's why I got the Wye style, so the valve can be removed and cleaned.

For some reason people here seem to believe that I am doing something crazy. I am installing this plumbing in *exactly* the same manner as the BRS160's basic plumbing (no manifold to start with) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1tAnhIGpgA

So, if I'm crazy, then I guess they are too.

In any event, I did take the first several comments to heart, and I am going to place the 34g sump on my 75 DT, and order a 58g sump for my 180 DT

Thanks to everyone for the input!