Tang War has begun!

[iriejp1]

I am not an expert for sure...I am still fairly new to all this. But from gathering information on this species it seems to me there are extreme recommendations on both side. Some say you shouldn't keep more than a single tang in ANY tank and some say 6-7 in a 175-200 is just fine.

IMO, it seems like common sense should prevail here. Obviously I did not take that into account when I started this thread and put two Acanthurus together. That clearly wasn't working and it was corrected fairly quickly.

But I guess my question is...isn't this medium for sharing thoughts, experiences, and ideas? If someone says "I have been successfully caring for 4 tangs in my 135 for 4 years now"...why are people attacking that person? You could say "I wouldn't recommend doing that"...or, "In my experience that hasn't been successful". But the bickering between some folks seems to be fairly unproductive. Especially on a topic that no one really has a definitive answer for as it is mostly experienced based and can vary.

But I do appreciate all the responses. The differing viewpoints on this subject have been helpful.

 

[triggerfish1976]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12865824#post12865824 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iriejp1

But I guess my question is...isn't this medium for sharing thoughts, experiences, and ideas? If someone says "I have been successfully caring for 4 tangs in my 135 for 4 years now"...why are people attacking that person?

There are different perceptions of success. The fish may be alive and have nice colors but are they full grown? Will they live as long as they would have in the wild or is their growth stunted and their life expectancy shorter? Most people who push the boundaries of husbandry for the sake of keeping fish because its something pretty to look at will always justify that there way is ok because they can't admit that they are being cruel or made a mistake so they the only other option is to say they are successful.
Most of the "printed" tank size recommendations for fish are generally created by companies that are actually selling these fish. If they were honest about the true recommended tank size then they probably wouldn't be selling as much.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12861497#post12861497 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JLopez
fish sadist? right...

back to my first point. who decided that his 150 gallon tank is too small for 3 tangs? or that my 75 is too small for my 4 tangs? and how did they come to this conclusion? as i said previously, unless someone has actually spoken to any of these fish, and asked them what size tank would be acceptable for their long term happiness, how would anybody actually know that these tangs are not being housed properly? and if it is large enough for 1, then why wouldnt it be large enough for the second or third? obviously, you would not keep 50 tangs in one tank, but i see nothing wrong with 3 or 4.

also, i have a friend that has had his 75 gallon tank for 4 years. he added a naso tang as one of his first fish and has had it for about 3 and a half years. it is one of the healthiest, colorful, looking tangs i have ever seen. who is to say the fish is not happy?

Just wait. I can keep a 12" angel in a 10 gallon tank for a short while and proclaim "success". It will likely be dead shortly thereafter, but until that point, it will be alive. Does that mean success? Obviously not. Longevity is the issue here, and your setup is destined for failure.

Yet, as Tim has mentioned, rather than accept advice and such, you are far more fixated on defending YOUR setup in the face of overwhelming expereince, so good luck to you.

 

[Slakker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12865824#post12865824 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iriejp1
..."I have been successfully caring for 4 tangs in my 135 for 4 years now"...why are people attacking that person?

As stated by previous posters, many people who make those claims have a twisted view of what success really is. If we weren't talking about fish, everyone would be outraged.

I could keep four rottweilers in my apartment for a couple of years and claim that they were perfectly healthy, and they might be, but you can be sure that any reasonable pet owner would condemn me for it.

Just because an animal can survive under a certain set of conditions doesn't mean they should have to. We have a responsibility to the creatures we keep to give them the best possible environment and care we can provide.

And by the way, I'm getting pretty sick of hearing the SPS argument every time someone does something stupid. You know what allowed people to successfully keep SPS? Countless hours of research and advances in technology and husbandry tactics. It didn't just so happen one day that Frank down the street got himself some SPS and it lived happily ever after. Many hours were spent learning what was needed to successfully keep SPS corals, including laboratory research.

There's a big difference between that and throwing a bunch of tangs in a small tank. People have attempted the latter before and found that it doesn't work. Ignoring that information is just foolish and irresponsible.

 

[JLopez]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12865824#post12865824 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iriejp1
Especially on a topic that no one really has a definitive answer for as it is mostly experienced based and can vary.

my point exactly.

in my previous 75g i had TWO yellow tangs for over 3 years. Recently i was told when adding my two new small yellow tangs that they couldnt be kept together because they would fight unless kept in odd numbers. i had never heard of this, and since i was succesful in keeping two in my other tank, i saw no problem in having two of them in a tank of the same size. my new ones dont fight either. thats twice in a row that i've disproven that theaory without even knowing or trying.

about the animals growth, yes you are all right. they obviously wont grow to their full potential, but so what? unless you have a HUGE tank, and im not talking 240g, they wont grow to their full potential either.

Other than the stunted growth, no one can dare say the fish is not happy or healthy, since, as i stated previously, no one can communicate with them to find out. the only real determining factors we have are how well they are eating, coloration, and other physical features and behaviors that can be seen by the naked eye.

 

[orientalexpress]

i don't know about u guys,everytime i saw a big fish all i'm thinking off is FRYING pan ,hmmm yummy.i bet u ,That what those islander think.big fishes in small tank better then the frying pan.gl

lapsan

 

[triggerfish1976]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12867840#post12867840 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JLopez
my point exactly.

in my previous 75g i had TWO yellow tangs for over 3 years. Recently i was told when adding my two new small yellow tangs that they couldnt be kept together because they would fight unless kept in odd numbers. i had never heard of this, and since i was succesful in keeping two in my other tank, i saw no problem in having two of them in a tank of the same size. my new ones dont fight either. thats twice in a row that i've disproven that theaory without even knowing or trying.

about the animals growth, yes you are all right. they obviously wont grow to their full potential, but so what? unless you have a HUGE tank, and im not talking 240g, they wont grow to their full potential either.

Other than the stunted growth, no one can dare say the fish is not happy or healthy, since, as i stated previously, no one can communicate with them to find out. the only real determining factors we have are how well they are eating, coloration, and other physical features and behaviors that can be seen by the naked eye.

You're basing your case off of two personal experiences that only lasted 3-4 years. come back after 10 years and let me know how they are doing and if they have reached their full adult size.
Until then you're just posting for the sake posting.
BTW - Your yellow tang analogy is full of general heresay info.

 

[Slakker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12867840#post12867840 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JLopez
...Other than the stunted growth, no one can dare say the fish is not happy or healthy...

Seems like a pretty good indicator to me...it's like putting a goldfish in a fish bowl...it'll live that way for a while, seemingly healthy, but eventually it won't be able to grow. It's my understanding that while fish growth is, to some extent, limited to the size of their tank, it's only the body that stops growing. Internal organs continue to develop, become cramped, and eventually cease to function properly. Tell me that that sounds like a healthy fish.

After seeing how fat and happy the goldfish in my mother's pond are (and through at least four Wisconsin winters, mind you) there's no way I'd ever put a goldfish in a tank less than 90 gallons ever again. Standard "veil tail" goldfish that people seem to love putting in 5 gallon tanks, at least 6 inches long in her pond.

Again, just because your tangs can survive for a couple years in your 75 doesn't mean they should have to. Stop being selfish and start listening to the years upon years of experience that has come before you.

You're not doing anything revolutionary here, it's been attempted before, and there's a REASON so many people advise against it, IT DOESN'T WORK.

Get over yourself and do the right thing.

 

[JLopez]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12868630#post12868630 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Stop being selfish and start listening to the years upon years of experience that has come before you.

Hobby Experience: Freshwater: 19 years, Saltwater: 3/22/2007
Current Tanks: Eclipse 12 Saltwater w/ 175w MH: 2 CB A. Ocellaris, Zoa's, Frogspawn, Hairy Mushroom, Blasto Merletti, Pocillipora Damicornis, Hydno (sp?), Porites (sp?) | 58RR Oceanic display/20H sumpfuge build in progress

 

[Slakker]

Never said it was me. I'm not the only person posting in this thread.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

I think we are wasting time here Slakker Its nice to help people who want to learn and want to be responsible...Mr Lopez is obviously not that kind of person!

 

[TangWhisperer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12869367#post12869367 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BTTRFLYGRL
I think we are wasting time here Slakker Its nice to help people who want to learn and want to be responsible...Mr Lopez is obviously not that kind of person!

I agree with everything that you have said in principle, but I can honestly say that for someone who makes a living in this industry, your lack of tact and your frank rudeness to your customer base is appalling. Not only is attacking someone by calling him ignorant and irresponsible a violation of the RC user's agreement, it is a self-destructive business model that equates to economic suicide. I can think of at least 2 people who will not be patronizing your business because of your offensive comments, one of whom has a six figure annual operating budget for his reef system. As a business professional, I would hope that you would have the wisdom to have taken the moral high ground. Suffice it to say that your actions have placed your store on my do-not-support list. That's too bad for you, as my system's annual operating budget is not insignificant. I just can't bring myself to support a store whose staff is overtly offensive and patronizing.

 

[dcmander]

you all are being ridiculous. the trick to tangs is be prepared to move them if they do not get along. i would personally never try a powder blue and powder brown together (unless over 250gal or so) just because they are such a similar fish....but i think it is fine to try to acanthurs together (even though they are the more aggressive tangs) in a larger tank as long as you are prepared to remove one if they are not happy.

that's the bottom line.....even the biggest noobs to the hobby would rather sell or trade a fish back to the LFS and get some money back then find it floating the next day

 

[Slakker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12870252#post12870252 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TangWhisperer
I agree with everything that you have said in principle, but I can honestly say that for someone who makes a living in this industry, your lack of tact and your frank rudeness to your customer base is appalling. Not only is attacking someone by calling him ignorant and irresponsible a violation of the RC user's agreement, it is a self-destructive business model that equates to economic suicide. I can think of at least 2 people who will not be patronizing your business because of your offensive comments, one of whom has a six figure annual operating budget for his reef system. As a business professional, I would hope that you would have the wisdom to have taken the moral high ground. Suffice it to say that your actions have placed your store on my do-not-support list. That's too bad for you, as my system's annual operating budget is not insignificant. I just can't bring myself to support a store whose staff is overtly offensive and patronizing.

I really hope that you've not gotten the impression that I'm in any way affiliated with Premium Aquatics. I'm just an outspoken individual who spends too much time reading.

I get the feeling you were referring to my comments, which is fine, but please understand that I am truly not associated with any company, group, club, etc. I work at a small software company that deals with real estate firms, so I don't even work in the industry.

I do hope that my comments here don't somehow dissuade you from doing business with someone over what seems to be a simple misunderstanding.

 

[iriejp1]

Clearly he was referring to Bttrflygrl as noted by the statement he is quoting.

He's got a good point...having your company as your avatar is probably not very bright if you're flaming people on a large forum such as RC. I have to say, I too found it relatively inappropriate behavior for someone representing their company--whether intentional or not.

 

[kdblove_99]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12870252#post12870252 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TangWhisperer
I agree with everything that you have said in principle, but I can honestly say that for someone who makes a living in this industry, your lack of tact and your frank rudeness to your customer base is appalling. Not only is attacking someone by calling him ignorant and irresponsible a violation of the RC user's agreement, it is a self-destructive business model that equates to economic suicide. I can think of at least 2 people who will not be patronizing your business because of your offensive comments, one of whom has a six figure annual operating budget for his reef system. As a business professional, I would hope that you would have the wisdom to have taken the moral high ground. Suffice it to say that your actions have placed your store on my do-not-support list. That's too bad for you, as my system's annual operating budget is not insignificant. I just can't bring myself to support a store whose staff is overtly offensive and patronizing.

As i have read through all this, Which there is a lot of junk. I hate Tang/Tank nazi's. Go with what works for you!

BUt the reason i want to respond is i agree with this person. FOr someone to be representing PA, YOu are doing a terrible job. Jeremy was great and i have used PA alot in the past. BUt i could never see drsfosters/Live aquaria talking to people like this. Its really appauling if Jason condons this behavior

 

[BangkokMatt]

I was going to stay off this thread. All the important points have been made.
However, the fact that BTTRFLYGRL is actually talking sense and is demonstrating a passion for her feelings (which I generally agree with) makes her posts worthy to say the least. I think it is refreshing for an 'associate' of an aquatic business to speak so openly and correctly. Why shouldn't an employee of PA be annoyed by what they feel to be poor fish care.
What really annoys me is comments such as "I hate Tang/Tank nazi's". Hate away, please! or...maybe add a useful comment which is not simply a mirrored 'bandwagon' post of the previous few.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12870252#post12870252 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TangWhisperer
I agree with everything that you have said in principle, but I can honestly say that for someone who makes a living in this industry, your lack of tact and your frank rudeness to your customer base is appalling. Not only is attacking someone by calling him ignorant and irresponsible a violation of the RC user's agreement, it is a self-destructive business model that equates to economic suicide. I can think of at least 2 people who will not be patronizing your business because of your offensive comments, one of whom has a six figure annual operating budget for his reef system. As a business professional, I would hope that you would have the wisdom to have taken the moral high ground. Suffice it to say that your actions have placed your store on my do-not-support list. That's too bad for you, as my system's annual operating budget is not insignificant. I just can't bring myself to support a store whose staff is overtly offensive and patronizing.

I don't see where I called anyone 'ignorant'. I am sorry you are offended that I care about the livestock we carry and the welfare of the fish brought into the industry, but I have seen and heard horror stories not worth repeating here and it does effect your overall attitude after awhile. I and 99% of the staff that work our 'open to the public' hours work hard to council our customers about stocking their tanks appropriately and if we have to deny a sale, we will do it.
If you would rather support a store that will sell you any fish just to make a sale, that's fine. I prefer to help people make good choices and as far as I am concerned that is better for business in the long run and I can sleep better at night knowing I did the right thing.
As far as my speaking here, I am usually browsing while at home and by no means speaking for PA as a business...therefor, I will change my avatar

 

[BrianD]

There is no reason for this to continue. If people want to believe it is "ok" to stock at some of these ridiculous levels (and totally ignore the temperament of each of the species), they will only listen to those people who agree witht them.

Closed.