Tang/water conditions???

[otrlynn]

I have a Kole Tang who made it through the rigors of hypo for ich and has been in the DT for about a month now. He developed a mild case of HLLE in the QT and I have been soaking Nori in either Zoe or Selcon to improve nutrition. Up until 48 hours ago he was eating anything and everything, incl. the Nori.

Last Saturday (4 days ago) I did a 6 gallon water change w/my regular salt, blew off the rocks with the turkey baster and scraped some corraline off the glass w/a glass scraper. On Sunday I added 4 snails and a tiger shrimp to the tank as well as 4 corals--a duncan, an acan. frag, a favia frag. and a small monti cap. I used reef safe epoxy and super glue gel to secure the frags. I noticed a bit of "sliming off" on several corals after the additions. I changed the bag of carbon that I have running in a HOB filter.

Yesteday I realized the Kole was hanging in a cave/tunnel most of the day. He did some swimming around, but kept going back to hang in the tunnel that he usually sleeps in at night. He had no interest in the Nori (which he usually eats right out of my hand as I am securing it in the clip) I happened to have some live brine shrimp (which I seldom feed) but this did not tempt him either. I don't think the problem is the HLLE, which is not severe and does not appear to have changed.

Other fish are yellow watchman goby, firefish, and cinnamon clown (not aggressive). All are fine!

An interesting observation which may or may not have any relevence is that my green star polyp, which is always out, has been entirely pulled following the new additions to the tank. Tank parameters are as follows.

Temp--80
S.G.--1.025 (refractometer)
Alk.--8,0
PH--8.0
Ca--390
ammonia--0
nitrate--1.0
phosphate--0
magnesium--1200

The only thing I add to the tank is 2-part. The calcium is usually at 400-420, but I did not add it yesterday as calcium was up to 440 the previous day. I used it after testing today. I don't know if I am dealing with a sick fish, or a fish reacting to something in the tank that is also bothering the GSP. Sorry for the long post. Wanted to get all the pieces on the table. Please no tang police; ultimately I may need to find another home for this medium-sized tang, but whatever is wrong now came on very suddenly.

 

[kirkaz]

I wouldn't mind seeing the ph a little higher. 8.3 to me is ideal, but I wouldn't think that is the issue. How much "flow" do you have? Is his breathing heavy or fast? Tangs need highly oxigenated water.

 

[Aquarist007]

your tank conditions are excellent and should not have bothered the tang
Perhaps with you hand in and out of the tank alot more with the new frags you have stressed it a bit and it is just hiding out.

Just curious about one thing--if the tang was suspected of HLLE in the qt why did you put it back in the display?

 

[otrlynn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13103114#post13103114 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
your tank conditions are excellent and should not have bothered the tang
Perhaps with you hand in and out of the tank alot more with the new frags you have stressed it a bit and it is just hiding out.

Just curious about one thing--if the tang was suspected of HLLE in the qt why did you put it back in the display?

Thanks guys,
Re: putting the tank back in the DT--I guess the short answer is ignorance. I thought what I was seeing was the effect of the ich dropping off the fish and leaving evidence by disrupting the skin. I wasn't too concerned because the fish had a great appetite and acted normal in the QT. Once he was back in the DT, I saw a picture of a tang with HLLE and Bingo!, I knew what it was. There really isn't much evidence of erosion of flesh, it is more of a lack of color around the head and a disruption of the color along the lateral line. Up until two days ago he was eating very well. I've been watching him more tonight and I realize that he is on the thin side for the amount that he was eating wonder if it could be some type of internal parasite...how would I know this?

I have 4 gallons of saltwater already made and think that perhaps I should go ahead and do a water change with minimal tank disruption (no turkey baster etc.) I have to pour my water directly in the tank but I'll pour slowly. I will make more water tonight.

I have more than 20x turnover in the tank plus whatever I get from the cascade of a small HOB. One powerhead nicely ruffles the surface of the water. My pH normally runs at 8.0 and has been down to 7.8 without any previous problems. My bioload is pretty small and the front half of the tank is covered with a birdnet screen. The Tang is not having any trouble swimming and does not seem to be stuggling to breathe.

Any other help appreciated.

 

[Sk8r]

The alk could be 8.3-9.3 for perfection. Gsp can be cranky about alk. I'm wondering about oxygenation, torpor just because there's a shortage of oxygen. I'm not seeing a fuge in the list and the skimmer may be just a little underpowered...can you crank up the bubbles a bit, just to see. Oceanic ph runs 7.9 as I recall.
Your calcium is a touch low: 420 is ideal. But when a tang is in trouble the very first thing that needs a check is the oxygen level: they need an extraordinary amount of it. He was doing fine in qt: what were you using in there to keep him oxygenated? Can you bring it into service in adddition to the skimmer?
Also I'd run some carbon in the theory it can take out organics and generally freshen the water; and a strip of polyfilter if you've got it to see if it betrays the presence of something it can take out. Water change may be beneficial.

 

[otrlynn]

Thanks Sk8r. I'll bring up the alk a little, as well as the calcium. I really don't think O2 is the problem with the tank. He did okay with 3 other fish in a 29 gallon tank QT with a glass cover, no skimmer, only a HOB and airstone. He went from looking great to not-so-great in the last 48 hours. I am already using the HOB on the DT with carbon in a filter bag (just changed the carbon yesterday) so the "waterfall" of the HOB is also helping to oxygenate the water. I'll do the water change on the theory that it can't hurt and may help...

 

[Sk8r]

This is a poser, for sure. I wish I could think of something else, but it could be the alk, remotely possible: tangs are thin-skinned sensitive fish, and are prone to skin ailments.

 

[otrlynn]

Just did a 15% water change without disturbing much. Siphon out, pour back in gently. Will test the parameters in a bit and see whether and how much 2-part I need to add. The lights are still off and the Kole is out swimming. When healthy he swims leaisurely through the tank and "pecks" his way around the tank, stopping at the rocks and glass along the way. I never can see what he is pecking at, but I guess he's getting minute amounts of algae. At the moment he is swimming around in a back corner in a repetitious manner, not wildly however.

 

[Sk8r]

If he shows a disposition to eat, try a Formula Two frozen cube. Spirulina stinks and may whet his appetite.
Out swimming after water change is encouraging. Run carbon and keep after the water changes at respectable intervals; might pick up some polyfilter and see what it grabs.

 

[otrlynn]

Hey, good news! After the water change this a.m., I saw the Tang picking at the back glass. I just fed some Mysis (I know this is not the best nutrition for a Tang, but I know that he previously went for it) and he is eating! I'm making up water now and will do another 10-15% change late tonite. The GSP has sent a few tentative polyps out. I'm going with the theory that I stirred up something bad on the Sat. I did the rock blowing and frag gluing, and that another water change should just improve things. I don't have any polyfilter but I'll try to pick some up.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13106761#post13106761 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by otrlynn
Hey, good news! After the water change this a.m., I saw the Tang picking at the back glass. I just fed some Mysis (I know this is not the best nutrition for a Tang, but I know that he previously went for it) and he is eating! I'm making up water now and will do another 10-15% change late tonite. The GSP has sent a few tentative polyps out. I'm going with the theory that I stirred up something bad on the Sat. I did the rock blowing and frag gluing, and that another water change should just improve things. I don't have any polyfilter but I'll try to pick some up.

good news---the tang was probably just stresed out over recent activiity in the tank.
The gsp can sometimes take longer to open back up--my record with them is seven days

 

[Sk8r]

Hurrah! I love it when they end well!

Doublecheck that alkalinity test kit: there were some bad ones sold last year, now corrected. Take some water to your lfs and get them to run a counter-check on your results. I know that if alk drops to a certain level gsp simply will not come out, and low alk or a ph drop wouldn't make a thin-skinned tang feel great either.

BTW, Otrlynn, I found a critter that eats diatoms: a chiton. Just FYI.

 

[Aquarist007]

good find sk8r

For your reading pleasure:
http://home.inreach.com/burghart/

 

[otrlynn]

Thanks you two! I'll check out the Chiton website--thanks for remembering about the diatoms Sk8r. I actually have Salifert's newest version of the Alk test and it comes with a reference solution. I tested the reference solution and it read right where it should, so I feel confident my Alk test was accurate. I'll bring it up a little with 2 part unless it came up with the water change. I haven't had a chance to re-test but will do so tonight.

 

[Sk8r]

I'm betting it's some related balance, be it ph, dkh hardness, etc, something in that ballpark: as substrate kicked up, could have been a ph shift, which plays hob with everything that synchs with it. You can buy online chitons, btw. Check that ph in the morning and again in the evening: sometimes there is a big difference. I think you are zeroed in on the general area of the problem, and thank goodness Mr. Kole is doing better.