tank over 4 years - tear it down

[sjvl51]

I'm confused

I'm confused

Dr. Ron, this newbie has read with interest this thread plus some of the articles referred to herein and come away very confused. The bottom line, as I understand (please correct me if I am wrong) is that I should filter my pre-mixed salt water for about 7 days with poly-filter and GAC (whatever that is - some type of activated carbon, I assume) for the best chance of removing the toxic chemicals before they can build-up in the tank.

Do you see a problem if I plan on having 35 gallons of salt water sitting in a container until I need it with a Fluval internal filter (Fluval 1 plus - http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=107&PROD_ID=01001600011001 ) using a PBM Poly-Bio Filter Pad that I have cut to size? It would be fairly easy to incorporate this extra holding tank in our planning now as we are setting the system up.

If this is not sufficient, what would you recommend?

Thanks for taking the time to answer this.

Vickie

 

[Tom Trochlil]

Dr. Ron,

Lots of discussion as to the presence of excess metals in the tank but what about the lack of iron found in the samples. Iron was not detected at the parts per trillion level? Isn't some level of iron critical to growth? It appears significant levels of iron were found in the algae and coral specimens.

I don't know if the lower levels of the other elements such as sulfur and boron are of concern.

Thanks for the excellent technical information that will continue to benefit the hobby.

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by Tom Trochlil

Hi Tom,

Lots of discussion as to the presence of excess metals in the tank but what about the lack of iron found in the samples. Iron was not detected at the parts per trillion level?

The detection limit for iron in the water samples was quite high, you can check the articles (I don't have the data handy). In fact, the DL was significantly greater than the normal sea water iron concentration, so although iron was not found in the tests, it really doesn't mean anything - there could have been plenty of iron there.

Isn't some level of iron critical to growth? It appears significant levels of iron were found in the algae and coral specimens.

Iron is necessary for growth, it is esspecially critical for cyanobacteria and algae. This is why it is found in the several of these exports.

I don't know if the lower levels of the other elements such as sulfur and boron are of concern.

No, they aren't. Sulfur will vary widely as it comes in varying concentrations in various foods, and boron doesn't seem to be a critical limiting material for anything.

 

[DLBerlin]

So this would probably explain why my tank at 4 years old (now 5yrs old)suddenly went to crap. I've been battleing dino's,hair,diatoms,and cyano in cycles-lost most microfauna and all my snails except 1.Lost several corals and a few fish.
I've added over a hundred snails at various times in the last year and they all die after about 2-3 weeks time. Hermit crabs are fine and some corals are doing great and growing.Bristle worms are fine.Added a macroalgea refugium a few months ago and it replentished the microfauna amazingly fast, but the algea and cyano just keeps coming no matter what we do.
I dont really want to replace everything as its a 180 gal. $$$$.
Been using Reef Crystals since startup and have 3-6 in sandbed,about 350 lbs live rock,40 gal sump/refuge with macro,3" sand,and a little live rock,mtc1000 skimmer.
Got a huge haddoni carpet that was the first thing in the tank 5 yrs ago thats still doing great-spawned last night actually
Makes me wanna cry when I look back at the old pictures.
Debbie

 

[rshimek]

Debbie,

Yes, I think this is a likely explanation. I went through much of the same thing, after thinking - and posting on line - that it could not occur. When it happened to me, it prompted the series of tests and articles resulting in the series in [rk].

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Tom:

I don't know if the lower levels of the other elements such as sulfur and boron are of concern.

Here's an article on what's good and bad about boron in reef tanks.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2002/chem.htm

 

[srlumaye1]

Hi Dr. Ron.

Been reading everything in this thread since reading your article in the December issue on Nutrient Export.

Cool article and very eye-opening report!

This report concentrated on heavy metals in the tank. Out of curiosity, have you or anyone you know done any research on coral toxins, and their export/breakdown? With a mixture of so many hard and soft corals in people's (mine also) tanks, I'm very interested in finding out how coral toxins are broken down and exported also. Could coral toxins accumulate in a tank the same as heavy metals? Which would have a more devastating effect on fish - Heavy Metals or Coral Toxins?

Thanks for any response you might be able to give.

Steve

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by srlumaye1

Hi Steve,

This report concentrated on heavy metals in the tank. Out of curiosity, have you or anyone you know done any research on coral toxins, and their export/breakdown?

In tanks, no. Eric Borneman may have some data on this, though.

This is a much more intractable problem, as these are organic molecules and biologically active, and likely fairly transitory - although they may not be...

Could coral toxins accumulate in a tank the same as heavy metals?

No, they would be broken down by bacteria and possibly some other organisms.

Which would have a more devastating effect on fish - Heavy Metals or Coral Toxins?

On the short term, hard telling. On the long term, the metals are bound to be worse. These a cumulative poisons to vertebrates. They accumulate through the life of the animal until they reach problem levels.

 

[srlumaye1]

No, they would be broken down by bacteria and possibly some other organisms.

Thanks for the quick response!

One last question.

Would you assume/guess that protein skimming would remove these coral toxins also? (Efficiently or inefficiently depending on quality of skimmer)

Steve

 

[rshimek]

Originally posted by srlumaye1

Hi,

Thanks for the quick response![//b]

Sheer luck. I just happened to be online.

Would you assume/guess that protein skimming would remove these coral toxins also? (Efficiently or inefficiently depending on quality of skimmer)

Yes, but there are no data on this, one way or the other.

 

[snsfalcon]

Any updates?

 

[Dag]

Omni Filter

Omni Filter

Dr. ron, can a regular Omni water filter be used with the Poly-filter you were recommending? Where does one acquire the Poly-filter and the GAC?

 

[XDrewX]

Would a micron filter placed in a canister filter be better than the poly-filter ?

This poly-filter "stuff", is it just the normal filter media that is available for cartridge type mechanical filters ?

Thanks

 

[rshimek]

Hi,

Dag,

I don't know about the Omni filter, but I presume it can be used. I get my Poly-filters and GAC from Drs. Foster and Smith, online.

XDrewX,

The Polyfilter the trademarked name of a filter that traps chemical impurities. It is not simple filter floss. A micon filter is not equivalent to this, and is simply fine file medium.

 

[Chargerfan]

Dr. Ron, thank you for the research that you've done in this area. Are you still planning on posting information on how to aquire and/or make metal free salt?

 

[rshimek]

Hi,

I will have an article concerning salts - and an acceptable salt mix - in the March issue of [rk].

Just finished the bioassays, but haven't worked up the data yet.

 

[md14fish]

old tank syndrome

old tank syndrome

So using NSW would be another alternative for us living on the coast?

Do you not advocate additives-strontium,Iodine etc.?

 

[rshimek]

Re: old tank syndrome

Re: old tank syndrome

Originally posted by md14fish

Hi,

So using NSW would be another alternative for us living on the coast?

Yes, of course.

Do you not advocate additives-strontium,Iodine etc.?

Of course I do not! I have documented the papers in the coral physiology literature showing that strontium decreases calcification in corals by poisoning the calcification pathway. Additionally, iodine has been known for along time to deleterious in any excess over NSW water levels. Most foods and most salts are loaded with excess iodine. The problem is not that there is too little, but that there is way too much in our systems- as the publications in February and March Reefkeeping Magazine document.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ron:

Additionally, iodine has been known for along time to deleterious in any excess over NSW water levels.

Do you have any references suggesting that either of the naturally ocurring forms, iodide or iodate have that effect on organisms that we keep in our tanks (not the much more toxic compound, I2)?

I've not been able to locate any, but have some that show that some types of algae grow better when iodide it is greater than NSW.

FWIW, I'm running growth experiments on Chaetomorpha and Caulerpa racemosa now with and without iodide supplementation to a natural level 0.05 ppm (and possibly higher).


Here are some typical references (note that natural total iodine levels are about 0.5 umol/L):


Effects of iodine on the growth of the fronds of Asparagopsis armata (Rhodophyceae, Bonnemaisoniales) in culture from spear bearing branches. Codomier, Louis; Segot, Madeleine; Combaut, Georges. Groupe Rech. Biol. Chim. Veg. Mar., Cent. Univ. Perpignan, Perpignan, Fr. Giornale Botanico Italiano (1979), 113(5-6), 387-93.

Abstract

By adding doses of 5 umol/L of KI or KIO3 to a medium changed every 6 days, max. growth of fronds of A. armata is obtained. Initial doses of I- and IO3- >15 umol/L inhibit the growth of this alga.

 

[rshimek]

Hi,

I have responded via email. In addition to what little I posted there, naturally occurring methyl iodate may be a problem. There are few references to methyl iodate being a useful pesticide, and a few other references noting that methyl iodate as being common in some marine situations.

I really don't think we know at all well what forms of iodo compounds are found in aquaria, and how much of it is any form.

Nonetheless, the recent data regarding inverts, in general, and marine inverts in specific are pretty sparse.