Tank transfer help

[Joe0813]

Hey everyone... Ive been reading up on the tank transfer method for QT... i had a question about when you transfer the fish to the next tank. As I have read the parasite falls off at night. So on the 4th day you take your fish and move them over. My question/concern is that my QT tanks are all in my basement with no windows. If I am not down there i have the lights off so it is pitch dark down there... So technically its always time for the parasite to fall off. should i buy a cheap light and put it over the tanks?

 

[Newsmyrna80]

if there is absolutely no light then I would put one in for the fish. The trophont will still fall off the fish and the theront will continue to look for a host even in darkness.

"Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) observed, in laboratory studies, that theronts were released only between the hours of 2:00 am and 9:00 am, even in total darkness; some suggest this strategy increases the chance for theronts to find a host, as many fish may be resting or closer to substrate during this time period. This is why I always suggest moving fish during tank transfer quarantine protocols in the morning."

 

[Spar]

"Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) observed, in laboratory studies, that theronts were released only between the hours of 2:00 am and 9:00 am, even in total darkness; some suggest this strategy increases the chance for theronts to find a host, as many fish may be resting or closer to substrate during this time period. This is why I always suggest moving fish during tank transfer quarantine protocols in the morning."

this is what i have never understood. if theronts are released only in the mornings, then it is in the mornings that fish would become reinfected in the case of a tomite/tomont hatching earlier than hoped. regardless that the timing doesn't actually matter given we are swapping out tanks well before the possibility of theronts emerging, shouldn't his comment say that we should transfer the fish in the afternoon or night instead? sort of counter intuitive otherwise. unless by morning he is meaning 'before 2:00am'...

 

[Joe0813]

i just didnt know if by having no light when im not in the room would screw up the cycle of the parasite... which in turn would mess up my tank transfer method since id be scooping out the fish and they would still be infected

 

[MellowReefer]

this is what i have never understood. if theronts are released only in the mornings, then it is in the mornings that fish would become reinfected in the case of a tomite/tomont hatching earlier than hoped. regardless that the timing doesn't actually matter given we are swapping out tanks well before the possibility of theronts emerging, shouldn't his comment say that we should transfer the fish in the afternoon or night instead? sort of counter intuitive otherwise. unless by morning he is meaning 'before 2:00am'...

You're not the only one, I have always been puzzled by this. if they only leave the fish in the middle of the night then it doesn't matter when you transfer as long as its not more than 3 nights. Early in the morning it would seem you have a higher risk that they haven't hardened to a surface. I do transfers around 7 pm.

 

[Joe0813]

but what i dont get is how do the parasites know its the middle of the night on my QT tank since i have no lights on the tank

 

[Spar]

but what i dont get is how do the parasites know its the middle of the night on my QT tank since i have no lights on the tank

Is there much/any ambient light through windows or light bulbs turned on nearby? I assume most animals are able to sense it one way or another, so parasites are likely no different.

 

[rssjsb]

You're not the only one, I have always been puzzled by this. if they only leave the fish in the middle of the night then it doesn't matter when you transfer as long as its not more than 3 nights. Early in the morning it would seem you have a higher risk that they haven't hardened to a surface. I do transfers around 7 pm.

I think you're conflating the stage where the parasites drop off (at night) and the stage where the new daughter parasites hatch.

This is what I understand: the form on the fish drops off at night after a minimum time of three days. For the next three to eight days, they crawl around and then bind to substrate and start making "daughter" parasites. Putting the fish in a clean tank means no new daughter parasites are present. Moving them after three days means that all of the parasites on the fish drop off but you're getting the fish out before the "daughters" can hatch.

So ultimately, you don't care what time of day the new ones hatch because you're always moving the fish ahead of that curve. Since you don't know how long the cysts they started with have been on the fish, you have to repeat the cycle several times, each time eliminating more. At the end, you're clean.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got this wrong.

 

[Joe0813]

no windows in my basement... i do have lights down there but when im not down there i dont turn them on. so basically fishies are in the dark unless im home and down stairs

 

[firemountain]

no windows in my basement... i do have lights down there but when im not down there i dont turn them on. so basically fishies are in the dark unless im home and down stairs

Maybe buy a cheap timer at Home Depot and a small plug in light. As long as there is some ambient light in the room, I would say that would suffice in the short term.

 

[Dmorty217]

i think you're conflating the stage where the parasites drop off (at night) and the stage where the new daughter parasites hatch.

This is what i understand: The form on the fish drops off at night after a minimum time of three days. For the next three to eight days, they crawl around and then bind to substrate and start making "daughter" parasites. Putting the fish in a clean tank means no new daughter parasites are present. Moving them after three days means that all of the parasites on the fish drop off but you're getting the fish out before the "daughters" can hatch.

So ultimately, you don't care what time of day the new ones hatch because you're always moving the fish ahead of that curve. Since you don't know how long the cysts they started with have been on the fish, you have to repeat the cycle several times, each time eliminating more. At the end, you're clean.

I'm sure someone will correct me if i've got this wrong.

+1

 

[MellowReefer]

I think I found the report that's usually referenced (link below).

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA16400.pdf

It doesn't say there's a specific time that the trophont leaves the fish, it just says that it takes between 2-18 hours to become attached to a hard surface. So it seems to me there's no particular time of day that's better or worse to make the transfer, just try to transfer as little water as possible.

The stage that always occurs between 2:00am and 9:00am is when the theronts are released from the tomonts (encysted stage that takes 4 days which should never happen because we are transfering every 3 days). So we really don't care about this stage at all and I'm not sure where the advice given to transfer early morning came from.

For the original question, I don't think the lighting schedule matters for tank transfer purposes. But I think having a light in the room on a timer is preferable so that the fish has a normal wake/rest pattern.

 

[rssjsb]

I think I found the report that's usually referenced (link below).

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA16400.pdfThe stage that always occurs between 2:00am and 9:00am is when the theronts are released from the tomonts (encysted stage that takes 4 days which should never happen because we are transfering every 3 days). So we really don't care about this stage at all and I'm not sure where the advice given to transfer early morning came from.

You said it better than me. By moving the fish every three days, you're ahead of the hatch. So it doesn't matter what time of day the theronts are released.

I think the notion that the trophonts drop off of the fish at night might have come from Steve and the idea of doing the transfer in the morning might be that you're minimizing the number you're taking with you into the next transfer. However, I also believe he's said that the time of day matters a lot less than the size of the window between transfers.

 

[Spar]

You said it better than me. By moving the fish every three days, you're ahead of the hatch. So it doesn't matter what time of day the theronts are released.

I think the notion that the trophonts drop off of the fish at night might have come from Steve and the idea of doing the transfer in the morning might be that you're minimizing the number you're taking with you into the next transfer. However, I also believe he's said that the time of day matters a lot less than the size of the window between transfers.

agreed --- i actually think that TTM would be substantially less of a confusion among new QT'ers had the 'morning' sentence never come up. i've even seen where someone waits specifically for mornings to do transfers even if it means taking 80+ hours between transfers.

 

[rssjsb]

agreed --- i actually think that TTM would be substantially less of a confusion among new QT'ers had the 'morning' sentence never come up. i've even seen where someone waits specifically for mornings to do transfers even if it means taking 80+ hours between transfers.

Talk about unintended consequences. Like a lot of things, there's some behavioral benefit to being consistent in your approach. Deciding you're going to do the transfers in the morning before you go to work means that you don't keep having to calculate how many hours have gone by since the last transfer. I think Steve has said as much - morning, noon, night, whatever, just pick a time that means you can be consistent.

But someone always takes things too literally and ends up fixating on the wrong thing.

 

[MellowReefer]

agreed --- i actually think that TTM would be substantially less of a confusion among new QT'ers had the 'morning' sentence never come up. i've even seen where someone waits specifically for mornings to do transfers even if it means taking 80+ hours between transfers.

A while back I posted about getting stressed out about morning transfers because I'm not a morning person and I'm clumsy and let a fish jump out of my container onto the floor. Someone was kind enough to tell me it's not necessary to do it in the morning. Life is so much easier now, I do the transfers when I get home from work.

I really think we should make a new sticky with the TTM summarized with specific directions and an example showing the schedule start to finish. It's hard to read through the whole thread and makes it seem to complicated. It's easy when you get used to it, and unlike using copper or other methods I have not lost a fish in QT since I started doing TTM.

 

[Patchmty]

+1 on the new sticky with schedule by hours

 

[MellowReefer]

Also I have seen people post a thread saying that they missed the transfer by an hour or two and someone tells them they should start the whole process over. When actually "The trophonts stay attached to the fish for at least 78 hours (Burgess and Matthews, 1994) and no more than 7 days (Colorni, 1985; Yoshinaga and Dickerson, 1994; Diggles and Lester, 1996)". So an hour or two should be okay if it takes at least 78 hours. I think 72 hours got started because of the 72 DAYS that was the longest reported case of a tomont waiting to hatch. Even that to me is silly because the 72 day instance was at an extremely low temperature (about 60 degrees) and the studies of tropical temps (72-84 degrees) showed the life cycle to be 2-28 days.

 

[rssjsb]

I think 72 hours just works better because it's less than 78 and ends up being three whole days instead of counting hours. But because most people don't really understand the science behind these recommendations, they tend to apply them mechanically and can't tell what's an important deviation and what is not. Dogma ensues.

 

[Spar]

Also I have seen people post a thread saying that they missed the transfer by an hour or two and someone tells them they should start the whole process over. When actually "The trophonts stay attached to the fish for at least 78 hours (Burgess and Matthews, 1994) and no more than 7 days (Colorni, 1985; Yoshinaga and Dickerson, 1994; Diggles and Lester, 1996)". So an hour or two should be okay if it takes at least 78 hours. I think 72 hours got started because of the 72 DAYS that was the longest reported case of a tomont waiting to hatch. Even that to me is silly because the 72 day instance was at an extremely low temperature (about 60 degrees) and the studies of tropical temps (72-84 degrees) showed the life cycle to be 2-28 days.

The 72 hours isnt related to the trophont stage, it is related to the tomont stage. The 12 days part is sourced from the trophont stage.

Both numbers are ambiguous and chosen merely to ensure that:
(a) you allow ample time for all trophonts to jump off the fish - all should in 7 days, but we keep at it for 12 days anyway, and
(b) you transfer the fish well before tomonts hatch releasing more theronts - we do transfers every 72 hours or less when in reality you have well over 80 hours before you are at risk; with 5 days (120 hours) being the most likely amount of time. 72 hours is also much easier to plan for than something in between 72 and 96.

Point being, the numbers we go by are way overly cautious, for the point being to make this a true fool-proof procedure. Of course the other variable is the cleaning and drying process.