The Elegance Coral Project

Below are two emails that were not sent via the board.


I utilize Eric's publications for reference on virtually a weekly basis, he has added great value to this hobby. I intentionally did not post my offer over the board because my desire was simply to assist in the research. I have since seen a number of posts that are troublesome.

Given the nominal cost of funding that is anticipated for this project I am actually surprised that the goal hasnt already been reached through contributions by the business sector. The companies or individuals named in this thread have their own reasons for either participating or declining. Please do not take my comments negatively because they are in no way meant as such.

I am very pleased to see the concern expressed by members of the RC community & their pledges for financial support. Please continue to stay involved. I can see you are all excited at the possibility to play a part in a realtime investigative process.

I am very confident that whatever Eric requires can be obtained through contributions from my organization and as well as many other wholesalers, exporters, importers, and retailers. I would be happy to reach out to these sources after communicating with Eric.

Lets keep a positive perspective on things and enjoy the day

--------------------------------------------------------

Hi Dan"

Thank you so much for your offer. I am off to the Keys to do some work for the next week, but will respond in full to your email while I am en route.

Best,

Eric Borneman

--------------------------------------------

Eric



It has been my pleasure to follow your publications and research over the years. Reef Splendor Inc

Is a wholesaler of marine life. I have significantly reduced our importation of Catalaphyllia jardinei

Over the past two years due to itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s poor survival rate in what I like to believe are optimal

Conditions. If a coral cannot demonstrate more than a 99% (not counting DOA) survival rate in our facility then it faces almost certain death in most retail stores and in the hands of even advanced hobbyists. It would be a pleasure to provide you with healthy & impaired specimens which have been maintained in accordance with your specifications.

Please advise how many specimens you will require and your preferred delivery schedule.



We have in excess of 3,000 corals in inventory at all times (at present only 1 Catalaphyllia jardinei which is not exhibiting any symptomsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ not maintained in the manner you have prescribed so it is

Not a viable candidate). I import from numerous world areas each week and as you are aware

Jardinei is normally available.



Look forward to hearing from you soon



Regards



Dan A. DiCarlo

President

Reef Splendor Inc

Tel: 845-227-6750

Fax: 845-227-5653
 
Eric,
You have misunderstood my position. I asked that my name be deleted because you posted hearsay about me that I felt was negative and as common courtesy I would have appreciated contact from you personally before posting this hearsay comment. This business is my livlihood, how I support my family, and I work hard to earn a good reputation and do not appreciate having negative comments that are hearsay being posted about me--sensitive to it yes, special treatment no--anyone would expect the same treatment whether a sponsor or not. I was contacted by a customer and as PART of a conversation that involved a business transaction I was asked to donate dead or dying Elegance corals. I was very busy at the time and commented that I had seen this thread but not read it through and would do so, before I had a chance someone contacted me that my name was used in a negative way here--being it was not a comment about my business and was personal and posted by you an RC staff member I asked that it be deleted as it was negative, inaccurtate, and hearsay. I do not have any Elegance to donate. You misunderstood, I meant that because we have met and know each other, had you called/emailed me and asked for financial support I would have done so, I support all types of reef clubs and other industry organizations. Your comments about sponsors are appreciated, but do not apply in this case, I have asked for nothing special except common courtesy, something I request as a member of the community and not because I am a sponsor, and that I be contacted and asked my position before it is posted in a public forum and that as second hand hearsay the comment and elaboration about my position on the subject being a veterinarian is irrelevant---the comment was not first hand communication and should not have been posted in my opinion. I appreciate the fact that this is your forum and you have sole rights to post as you wish and I now understand I have no right to question that.

My position is that I will gladly support the study. I was upset with what I felt was a personal and negative comment made about me by an RC staff member based on second-hand hearsay and that private communications have made their way onto a public forum.
 
Hi Dr. Mac,
Since I am the volunteer Eric is referring to, I feel that I should come forward here.

Yes, you were very polite and we had a good conversation. I was not offended in any way and did not present it to Eric that I was. You were very nice about it, but the message I got from you was that you felt that the problem with Elegance had to do with where they were coming from and the collection. You believed that Elegance from Indonesia were the problem and those from Soloman Islands were fine. Since this pattern had held true for you, you had avoided sick Elegance and the problem had not been an issue for you. You did tell me that you had seen the thread, would check it out and contact Eric if there was anything you could do to help. But, maybe because you were busy at the time, my impression was that you didn't really feel that any research was necessary because the answer was already known.

What I didn't realize when I reported back to Eric, is that your response fit in with what he was getting from a number of volunteers and also direct responses to him. There has been a pattern of ... I've figured it out, it doesn't affect me, so I don't need to worry about it, but good luck with your project. Or, the other similar thread has been ... It's already figured out ... it's Indonesia ... let's just not order from Indonesia so it's not a problem that needs research. If you go back and read Eric's post, he was really going off on that whole pattern of attitude and not any one vendor. He was using examples of things we'd heard to illustrate.

When I reported back to Eric, I hit 2 big hot buttons for him and he was already pushed to the point of frustration by what he'd heard from others. The first hot button is his frustration with people who are willing to draw a conclusion over anecdotal evidence rather than supporting real research to determine scientifically supported answers. (i.e. It's Indonesia ... end of story. Or the other one we've been hearing ... Tanks are too clean now and Elegance needs more nutrients in the water. Both are anecdotal conclusions.) The second hot button is ...... well ... I think it has to do with his commitment and passion for the reefs themselves and his fervent belief that all of us who bring corals into our aquariums to enjoy, and especially those who profit from bringing corals out of the reefs, have a reponsibility to the reefs as a whole and any animal in trouble because of what we do. The Elegance is just one small part of what is really a huge and complex problem with our entire hobby.

So ... back to our conversation. If I misinterpreted what you told me, I am sorry. I did not present it as a "lets rat out another vendor" type of thing. Your response just seemed to fall in with the patterns that were pushing Eric and all of us trying to supprt this project over the edge. I don't believe there was the intention to attack you or your business. The criticism is of the attitude only and I believe criticism of that attitude is absolutely justified. I think bringing up your background as a veterinarian was more to illustrate the point that even those with a scientific background were willing to accept anecdotal evidence rather than demand scientifically supported results. I don't want to go too far trying to interpret Eric, because as we all can see he has strong opinions that he expresses very clearly.

I do believe that this thread should stay on task and be used to report progress and support of the project. Eric, when you read this, I hope I have proven my support enough at this point that I can get away with this; but I think we need to refocus this thread on the positive. I think it is important that vendors who choose to support this project do so because they believe in it, not because they're afraid they will be attacked on RC.

Dr. Mac, if you want to help, we'd appreciate it. Regardless of your stance on the validity of the project, I sure don't want to be responsible in any way of hurting your reputation. The coral I got from you is beautiful, the packing exceptional, and the service and follow through excellent. (There is some critter in the bird's nest that I've been afraid to ask you about because I thought you were probably mad at me. :rolleyes: .... but that's my fault for not following your instructions, not yours that it's there.)

Bottom line (yes, I'm an accountant) for me is this; I believe whole heartedly that we do all have a responsibillity to be concerned about a coral that continues to be harvested with such a low chance of survival, whether or not we own an Elegance or deal in them. I think all of us who are closely involved with this project have interpreted every show of support, even the smallest of donations, to be a statement of support ... not just for the Elegance Coral, but research and responsibility in general as it applies to all corals collected and the reefs themselves. Maybe that's not fair, but that's how I feel about it and why I have thrown myself so strongly into this project. Eric hits things hard and strong, but his passion and commitment towards his research and the reefs is what gives me the confidence to have put myself on the line by taking the financial management responsibility for this project. Going forward, I am more likely to support vendors that I know feel the same responsibility and commitment to the reefs. I hope that will include you.

Cathy
 
I think it is important that vendors who choose to support this project do so because they believe in it, not because they're afraid they will be attacked on RC.
Click to expand...

Precisely! When I conducted the hand netting fundraiser here on RC several months ago, we gave positive reenforcement to those businesses that supported the fundraiser and ignored the others. Why? Because different people/businesses are entitled to their reasons for not participating, no matter how passionately I feel about getting netting material to the Philippines and Indonesia. And if I was rude to them for not participating, how could I ever expect to get their support on future projects? Thinking about the future is very important in this industry for a variety of reasons. Alienating your potential support base for future projects is just a bad idea.
 
Cathy,
Thanks for your clarification. I am not mad at you in any way. I was just surprised when someone alerted me to my name being used in this thread when I had not even been in contact with Eric directly and I felt his comment about me was personal and negative. My private communication with Eric was that I was upset about posting his perception of my thoughts on the issue when I he had not been in contact with me personally. This has nothing to do with my desire to sponsor this or any reef related project, whether I am a sponsor of this BB or not, or whether I feel the project is worthy or not. This and many other projects could be quite worthy to the reef community in general.

I am always sponsoring all kinds of projects, reef clubs, etc. and as evidence by my years in the hobby (since 1968) am very passionate also about these animals. It must also be appreciated by everyone that we are all busy folks. I am sure you are, Eric is, and so are the vendors that sponsor this BB, sometimes it takes a while to respond. I do not ask for special treatment as a sponsor, just to be treated fairly.

I appreciate your response, but this thread is not about me and I have no desire for it to become so. I have publically stated I am willing to support the project. I am currently supporting coral research being done at a local university and am currently investing heavily with money and time in the expansion of my business and my capability to do more aquaculture and research of corals. As with many sponsors of this BB, we are intimately involved in this hobby/business--mostly because we are passionate about it, hobbyists in it, and yes also earn our livlihood from it. We eat, drink, and sleep this hobby and our dedication is evident by our commitment to not only the hobby but also our customers.
 
I'm in agreement Mary ... but I think a number of hobbyists here have given money to support this project ... and I think Eric reflects part of our same frustration with the `shirking the blame' that is so common to see.

Yup, you're supporting your family he business and I can understand - but I and others here are supporting our families, our tanks ... and could scrape up cash to send. Also support our local reef clubs, etc.

I would be much more comfortable if money amounts given by businesses were not reported here ... as comparing what you can afford to what a large importer could write off just seems wrong as it gives the wrong impression. Dollars do `talk' ... but support in ANY fashion talks far louder. I'm sure you agree after the netting work you've done ... that every dollar counts.

Whether someone thinks they know the problem/answer, and can avoid it ... I am also frustrated that I can personally support this while businesses can say `I'm not a part of it' and neither giving funding or samples. Maybe you don't touch them, but you are involved in the import-end of business ...

If it wasn't for your efforts in the net campaign, and projects like this one ... I'd be mighty close to having a fishless reef ... as I can easily supply myself from reef clubs and domestic coral prop facilities with everything I'd want in my tank. Snails and other cleanup crew would be tough - but that's about all I really `need'. And like a LFS in my area [that carries only few fish, due to difficulty tracing capture/etc methods involved] - cannot adequately know the capture methods of anything - and it all leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

I hate to see the goniopora, dendronepthea, elegance ... and other corals I see in the LFS - and it's difficult to not support them, not support those importers - when to be honest much of this is purposefully kept out of sight of hobbyists. I don't want to accuse anyone - and know that some people are trying hard to implement changes to current practices; yet it's hard to see - hard to know - and I have great sympathy with Eric's stand here.

----
Anyway, maybe I should re-emphasize that maybe we should keep $$ amounts given by businesses unknown - so as to not invite comparisons to what different places can afford equalling support or half-hearted support.
Not sure how best to deal with this ... but I'd think that even if every business matched [or beat] the $50 contribution I could scrape together it would certainly set a good precedent. For very few of us money grows on trees, I'm well aware. [paying for my own wedding this summer as I speak ... and with this hobby, that means far more belt-tightening than I'm used to].

Anyway - my 2 cents to this discussion. Just to make sure all are aware that when all is said and done - I'm going to pay close attention to who is on the `contribution list' and gauge my future purchases and attitude accordingly. Compared to the price of being a sponsor on RC or other boards ... even a small contribution here may `do something' other than advertise. Speaks loud to the few [many?] like myself here.
 
MiddletonMark said:
......... Just to make sure all are aware that when all is said and done - I'm going to pay close attention to who is on the `contribution list' and gauge my future purchases and attitude accordingly...............
Click to expand...
I would imagine many of us will be monitoring the support.

It will be fine with me if an organization does not contribute in some manner, unless they are selling Elegance. If they are not involved and they sell Elegance, I can not imagine any situation that would cause me to contribute to their bottom line, ever.
 
Mark, et al,
Vendors and sponsors are asked all the time to donate to many reef related causes. I am asked almost daily to contribute to reef clubs, new BBs, etc. etc. We all have limited resources and to say a vendor or sponsor is not worthy of doing business with just because they do not or can not support a specific project is unfair in my opinion, nor is it correct that any vendor is any better just because they do donate or participate. I do not want to appear self serving here, but the amount a vendor or sponsor donates or if they do not donate does not reflect their passion or care for the animals and the hobby. As a hobbyist you are not in a position to be asked daily to contribute to all sorts of reef related things, vendors and sponsors are and there is only so much to go around. My personal opinion is that I do not fault any company or individual for not donating or participating in this one particular study for whatever reason. The process of proposing, funding, conducting research for this hobby should be handled differently.

My proposal
Select a commitee of 3-5 folks to weed through legitimate reefkeeping related projects and deem certain ones appropriate to fund and then take funds from a pool of monies set up by vendors, sponsors, hobbyists--whom ever. This is what universitites and other organizations do all the time---review proposals and then decide which will be sponsored and funded and then there is accoutability and reports etc. I will hereby publically state that I will be first in line with a $2000 donation to start such a fund if we can find a small group of qualified impartial folks willing to be on the review board (best to have a mix of research types, hobbyists, vendors, etc.) and then maybe have a forum on this BB to weed through, and post progress of reefkeeping related projects. JohnL, how about starting such a forum and then how about including the comments of the whole community on topics of interest worthy of study, voting on projects to fund, follow up reports on progress, awards for best suggestions and projects completed, etc. Let's do it for the animals we all care so passionately about! This would be research conducted by qualified institutions directly related to the hobby. This can be done, in my pervious career I did just this in the food safety field. You can easily seek and find qualified researchers and contract with them to conduct trials as long as the proposal is well written and then followed up.

This in no way comments on the worthiness of the project at hand now--it is obviously worthy of study, in fact I will donate $500 toward this current project--just tell me where to send the check, but let's do something more permanant and involve the community here on RC in a formal and organized manner.
 
Now perhaps you can see why my first reponse was directly to Eric vs posted on RC.

I do not believe that commercial establishments should be rewarded or punished based upon their participation in a specific effort. Frankly my involvement was two fold, first to support someone that is attempting to assist all of us and secondly I have a profit motive !! Yes those ugly $$. There is a great deal at stake for the hobby/industry as a whole, Elegence, in recent years is a great example of why collection could/should be stopped.

If an establishment shows no regard for the environment and is solely motivated by profit then support by those who care should be withdrawn and redirected to firms with a moral directive.

Although I do not know Dr Mac personally, I can tell you that from what I have heard he does care about the environment, has also pledged assistance and yet the thread continues. (By the way the problem is not soley involving Indonesian source of supply, this problem was prevalent over 10 years ago, it cycled and disappeared until a few years ago.... no I dont know the cause or the solution)

Some jerk once wrote (..that would be me)
"We take from nature, for our own enjoyment, things that enrich our lives, when viewed as a mechanism to share our passion, we justify our action towards a greater good. When others are exposed to the wonders of the ocean they cannot resist its beauty and become firm supporters of it's protection.

Please focus on the real issue which is engendering support, in a positive manner, to further research that will benefit us all.

peace
 
It has been my hope from the beginning that this could grow into a full fledged research organization that could continue past even this project. I've already discussed this possibility with Eric. So far we've been in "one step at a time mode" and were waiting to see what kind of support was out there for this project before a decision was made as to where to go next.

What is involved is setting up a Foundation corporation in the state where the organization is to be based and then filing for 501(c)(3) status for the Foundation. Having a Foundation would require appointing a Board of volunteers and procedures for identifying projects chosen for support. If this were accomplished at any time in 2004, tax deductibility of the contributions made so far would be retroactive.

Someone would have to take primary responsibility for this and if RC wanted to sponsor a nonprofit research subsidiary it might be a good way to make it happen. I think Eric would be glad to be relieved of the administrative burden of taking that primary responsibility, but he would have to answer that question.

For now, this all got started with Eric volunteering his time and energy to perform the research for the project at hand and we need his approval and support with how it should continue. I am hugely in favor of the concept because I see it as a way to accomplish ongoing research beyond just this project.
Donations to this project now, can be sent to:

Elegance Coral Project
c/o Catherine Peck, CPA
6387 Brooks Manor Cove
Memphis, TN 38119

or PayPal: cash = CoralResearch@midsouth.rr.com
credit card = crpeck@midsouth.rr.com

Well we will certainly have a lot for Eric to read and respond to when he gets back from The Keys.

I was concerned at the turn this thread was taking re vendors, but I can see now that we've generated some positive and productive discussion.

Cathy
 
Dr Mac, others ... have no doubts - I'm not judging solely based on this project - yet don't want folks to think it's something I take lightly either.

But reef clubs, BB, and the like while worthy groups of support ... I tend to see as advertising in one fashion or another. I do not want contributors to this list to be seen as `advertisers' - that was not my intent. But I am aware that all the business-sponsors of our Reef Clubs, BB, etc are all given visibility as `thanks' - where when I contribute to my reef clubs, or BB's ... they don't have my name announced, thanked, or put personal messages at the top of every page.

Don't forget, most Reef Clubs require dues for members, almost every BB I'm on asks for dontations from it's members - I do have sympathy for your point, but it's not like you get no `word out' by contribution.

Ok, I'll drop it - I'm too wordy and rambled too much already ;)

But your points are well made, and something to think about. I appreciate your input in this discussion - and think that this research funding your are discussing is a GREAT way to move for the future. Perhaps we can put other appropriate places on this list [maybe something to do with capture, surveys on effects of collection, etc]. It's a great thing IMO - we should continue to move this hobby forward [start to?] ... as it's future rests on all of us, whether importer, business, hobbyist.

---

I tell you what, the fact that you are here, right now, participating in this discussion shows a LOT to me ... that whether you give corals/donation - you're not `the average'. :D

I don't see you as part of the problem - and that's my #1 consideration. Of course I'd like to see things moving forward through both your and my support.

Personally, you're ALL obviously involved in this hobby beyond the sake of money - and I know of each of your businesses, have [and will] consider purchasing stuff from you - and when I finally get married and get money for `fun reef stuff' again ... you'll be on the list.

Thanks for being here, doing what you already do - and your ideas. It's rare when someone like me gets to interact with someone like you - and I appreciate these chances to hash out what's in my mind, and yours
 
Dr. Mac,

This is a likely forum to start such a discussion regarding a broader scope:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=225

We'd need to get some additional support from a moderator and some of the onboard experts since the topics will likely ignite tremendous passions ;) I'll ping those in a position to look into it directly.

Thanks for your past, present, and knowing you personally from WAMAS, your future support as well.

Cheers.

btw: Hobbyists may not be able to easily ascertain a businesses motives, but practices such as describing critters as "easily maintained" when only a tiny percentage survive could be a large clue.
 
traveller7 said:
btw: Hobbyists may not be able to easily ascertain a businesses motives, but practices such as describing critters as "easily maintained" when only a tiny percentage survive could be a large clue.
Click to expand...

Great point! That has just blown me away as I've been searching out these corals for the project. I've wondered if they really didn't know any better or just didn't care. I haven't emailed all of the vendors on my list with Elegance for sale yet, but it will be interesting to see what, if any, response I get from some of them.
 
crpeck said:
Great point! That has just blown me away as I've been searching out these corals for the project. I've wondered if they really didn't know any better or just didn't care. I haven't emailed all of the vendors on my list with Elegance for sale yet, but it will be interesting to see what, if any, response I get from some of them.
Click to expand...


This is part of the issue(s) this project hopes to correct. Actually Elegance Corals WERE some of the easiest to keep when I got into this hobby back in the early 90's. They have seen a recent (last few years) decline in health in closed systems. I personally would like to think that it is something so simple that is being overlooked. Maybe we are getting far to good at maintaining super high quality water and environments, that they are not able to provide in captive environments.

Bickering aside, these animals are far to beautiful and magnificent to allow petty differences to get in the way of saving them.

JM2Cents

Thanx everyone!
 
Eric,the sick elegance is still with Alex at ama.aquar.When you get back from the keys,it might be a good time to consider having it shipped to you.I believe Alex said he would donate it.perhaps,
i'll pay for the shipping to split the losses.On a side note,the two elegances that i bought(1 was shipped to you and is presumably still healthy?)the one that remains is doing fantastic and also appears very healthy.I will try to take some high quality images
so Vert 20 can post them on the website.It seems they are the near-shore silty bottom type and the one that appears sick at LFS is the purple-tipped(presumably deeper-water?)

BTW,i wanted to personally thank you for taking on this project.I
know this is demanding alot of time and energy.
I think we all need to remember Eric volunteered to do this to
the benefit of us all(hobbyists,vendors,LFS,importers,and especially to the survival of this wonderful coral)
 
HI All:

To be sure, we all have something to gain by this research. As a hobbyist, whether I like it or not, I am part of the problem concerning the effects that we humans are having on the world's reefs. Like it or not, all of the species that are harvested from the reefs are losing out. I'm sure that we would all agree on this. However, the most affected species are the ones that take the longest to mature and grow. This is obviously true for the majority of coral species. Therefore, the best way to go IMO is to do more in the way of captive propagation and breeding.

Think about it? Even if this Elegance Project is successful and Eric finds a solution, Catalaphyllia will still have to be collected from the wild. Although, survival rates will hopefully be much higher, this and other species will still be under pressure of overcollection, etc...

I agree with Mark that when one is making a living selling fish, corals, etc.. it becomes very difficult to be impartial. However, I do believe that the majority of vendors truly care about these organisms and would support any positive research such as this project.

Knowing Eric as I do, I can tell you that he is not doing this for any personal gain or some ego trip. Since we are all part of the problem, we should all strive to be part of the solution.

My hat's off to Cathy and the others who are VOLUNTEERING their precious time to this project. I also pledge to help in any way that I can.

Now, on to bigger and better things in the future! Hopefully, all of our concerted efforts will pay off and maybe, just maybe, we can make a difference to these marvelous wonders of nature that we all love so much!!
 
OOPS! Sorry Cathy, I surely didn't mean to leave anyone out especially Stephen!

I did check out the site and it's terrific! Couldn't have done it better myself. Actually, couldn't have done it at all since my computer skills are basically non-existent. :)
 
Yep, I volunteered to help ... and when I first checked out the site he made - I realized I was one too many cooks and would likely just spoil the broth :D
You both have done great jobs ... others as well, but the two of you have really done a great job creating the `foundation' for this project.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

J
  • Question Question
refugium help
Replies
4
Views
190
wvned
wvned
Tamara Marshall
𝐂𝐨𝐦𝐩𝐫𝐞𝐡𝐞𝐧𝐬𝐢𝐯𝐞 𝐀𝐫𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐥𝐞 𝐀𝐛𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐄𝐥𝐞𝐠𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐂𝐨𝐫𝐚𝐥𝐬- 𝐌𝐚𝐧𝐭𝐚 𝐒𝐲𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐦𝐬 𝐀𝐫𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐥𝐞
Replies
0
Views
264
Tamara Marshall
Tamara Marshall
Tamara Marshall
𝐂𝐨𝐦𝐩𝐫𝐞𝐡𝐞𝐧𝐬𝐢𝐯𝐞 𝐀𝐫𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐥𝐞 𝐀𝐛𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐄𝐥𝐞𝐠𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐂𝐨𝐫𝐚𝐥𝐬- 𝐌𝐚𝐧𝐭𝐚 𝐒𝐲𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐦𝐬 𝐀𝐫𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐥𝐞
Replies
0
Views
285
Tamara Marshall
Tamara Marshall
Dr. Reef
Better and Sweeter than LiveAquaria
Replies
0
Views
128
Dr. Reef
Dr. Reef
Dr. Reef
Better and Sweeter than LiveAquaria
Replies
0
Views
374
Dr. Reef
Dr. Reef
Back
Top