Serioussnaps
New member
Man i hate when people fill these threads. LIke you can even follow it without spending days reading.
THE GREAT SKIMMERLESS DEBATE! join on in
- Thread starter Shawnts106
- Start date
Shawnts106
New member
Must be then.
Sorry, guess you just have to start from day one... this is a discussion.. and it does get lenghthy..
Shawnts106
New member
Today I turned off my ASMG2 on my 75... we will see what goes...
I have noticed my Goniopora isnt as happy as usual todya..
so Im just going to see what happens...
my Euphyllias are still very upset... and Im thinking this is due to low nutrient levels
I have noticed my Goniopora isnt as happy as usual todya..
so Im just going to see what happens...
my Euphyllias are still very upset... and Im thinking this is due to low nutrient levels
havent really replied lately but i figured i would post
im an assistant manager at the biggest wholesale facility on the east coast and therefore i get to talk to alot of very bright store owners. It seems the censis is that most set up tanks with skimmers.....this is due to them being able to be set up relatively inexpensively and in a small space.....most of these tanks are doing great and look great
but this is where things get a little crazier....as u read my first post i am not a big one on setting up a tank without a skimmer
this has changed to some degree....i believe that skimmers do pull out to much organics in a sense or can pull out to much organics if run constantly....for some ppl they use large quantities of live rock or drip food and change water frequently to replention essential elements....but with a tank with a skimmer there is obviously a break in the food chain and nitrate cycle and phosphorus cycle in a reef this is good due to the amount of nutrients built up.....but anyway i believe if u have the space and resources and you can set up a large enough refugium that will keep nutrients at proper levels the reef will run better or more natural due to the increase in food and life that is there because the disolved organics and trace elements are not being pulled out....but it is very hard to achieve this and should only be attempted by advanced aquarist that can dedicate time to check water quality daily and monitor the reef...i would never tell a new hobbyiest not to run a skimmer
that was long and probaly confusing but it makes sense to me
Brad
im an assistant manager at the biggest wholesale facility on the east coast and therefore i get to talk to alot of very bright store owners. It seems the censis is that most set up tanks with skimmers.....this is due to them being able to be set up relatively inexpensively and in a small space.....most of these tanks are doing great and look great
but this is where things get a little crazier....as u read my first post i am not a big one on setting up a tank without a skimmer
this has changed to some degree....i believe that skimmers do pull out to much organics in a sense or can pull out to much organics if run constantly....for some ppl they use large quantities of live rock or drip food and change water frequently to replention essential elements....but with a tank with a skimmer there is obviously a break in the food chain and nitrate cycle and phosphorus cycle in a reef this is good due to the amount of nutrients built up.....but anyway i believe if u have the space and resources and you can set up a large enough refugium that will keep nutrients at proper levels the reef will run better or more natural due to the increase in food and life that is there because the disolved organics and trace elements are not being pulled out....but it is very hard to achieve this and should only be attempted by advanced aquarist that can dedicate time to check water quality daily and monitor the reef...i would never tell a new hobbyiest not to run a skimmer
that was long and probaly confusing but it makes sense to me
Brad
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7557899#post7557899 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flatlander
So where is the reply,s to my posts from the turf scrubber alone advocates.Hmm, for some reason, I never seem to get many after posting. Seems to happen on a regular basis on these threads.
Here ya go.... The reason I gave up on ATS is simple. I didn't have the time. Making sure the dump bucket didn't get jammed with salt spray, removing salt creep from all areas of the house, scraping the algae off the screen, fixing broken screens, the list could almost be endless. They work ok, nothing better then a tank filled with algae. I think in terms of time expense, ATS is much more expensive then a well built skimmer with or without a fuge.
Shawnts106
New member
Who are you with again?
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
Are skimmers actually removing trace elements?
I've never seen any verification that skimmers can remove Calcium [or Manganese, for example] beyond what would be normally contained in the water volume removed.
Organics, yes ... but trace elements, IMO, not removed.
G-money
Premium Member
The pure principle of foam fractionation pretty much eliminates the possible skimming of trace minerals. These are minerals here, not amphipathic molecules. Simple mineral compounds are not composed of polar and nonpolar moieties. Unless they are bound to a skimmable organic molecule, they aren't skimmed. The only traces getting into your collection cup are unconcentrated and no doubt found at the same concentration as the water in the tank.
In fact, I'd go as far as to suggest that increasing the biological assimilation of nutrients and the like could quite possibly increase the rate of depletion of traces beyond any other approach. More organisms means more overall metabolism means more need for raw materials besides the nutrients you are wanting to decrease. Think about that...
In fact, I'd go as far as to suggest that increasing the biological assimilation of nutrients and the like could quite possibly increase the rate of depletion of traces beyond any other approach. More organisms means more overall metabolism means more need for raw materials besides the nutrients you are wanting to decrease. Think about that...
Yes i agree with you but to an extent not all trace elements are ionic and nonpolar....there are organic based trace elements present in sea water that do get depleted.....i am referring more to dissolved organics of a reef that is being removed that is essensial to life on the reef....again i use skimmers on about 30 of my reef tanks and only run one without a large skimmer (still has a small skimmer)
Brad
Brad
Amphiprion
Premium Member
I agree with MiddletonMark and G-money. There will be skimming of some chelated compounds, but certainly not enough to make a difference. Besides, most elements are present in great abundance (in many, if not most cases, overabundance) in our tanks, so removing some is hardly an issue, at least IME.
G-money
Premium Member
Such as?
So it's a good thing that skimming isn't 100% efficient, eh?
Amphiprion makes another good point. With all the impurities found in ASW, not to mention food input, and not to mention any recent analysis of any number of ASW mixes I've seen, the depletion of trace minerals is a complete nonfactor. Some of these "traces" are found at levels that could be toxic to certain organisms. None of them are even close to as "trace" as what would be found in NSW. If you change your water as often as most reefers do, let's just admit that it's not an issue at all.
Elements such as organic based iodines can removed.....and your right trace elements is generally not a factor inless large amounts of wet skimming is used.....i can tell you that elements are removed by skimming...again i have over 30 reefs run on skimmers in a 14,000 square foot facility and test the water with la Mottes test kits (laboratory grade) and notice a depletion of trace elements and salt in systems being skimmed wet
Brad
Brad
but as u said once this water is replaced it is fine.....the only thing i feel a skimmed system removes foods and organisms that are essential links in the food chain.....but it is very hard to get nutrients to 0 in a biologically run reef....for example i have 270 reef with 270 refugium that still does not have 0 phosphates even with that myuch caulerpa
Brad
Brad
Amphiprion
Premium Member
The problem with iodine in our aquaria is that we have no idea what concentrations of the different forms of iodine are present. Some are present in seawater much longer than other, more familiar forms, such as iodide. In addition to what people add, food addition can add significant amounts of iodine. Some foods will even allow for a 100% turnover of iodine per day--that is the .06ppm added DAILY, just from certain foods! To be honest, I am glad my protein skimmer removes iodine.
I do agree that they can and do remove important factors in the food chain, such as planktonic organisms, etc. It is up to the individual aquarist to determine which particular scenario (lower nutrients or higher amounts of food sources) will benefit their tank the most--probably a combination of the two, maybe lighter skimming in certain instances. That, of course, is why this is a debate
I do agree that they can and do remove important factors in the food chain, such as planktonic organisms, etc. It is up to the individual aquarist to determine which particular scenario (lower nutrients or higher amounts of food sources) will benefit their tank the most--probably a combination of the two, maybe lighter skimming in certain instances. That, of course, is why this is a debate
Amphiprion
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7602650#post7602650 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amphiprion
The problem with iodine in our aquaria is that we have no idea what concentrations of the different forms of iodine are present and we have no concrete evidence that the organisms we keep NEED it. We know they absorb and sequester it, but whether or not they actually need it is another story altogether. Some forms of iodine are present in seawater much longer than other, more familiar forms, such as iodide. In addition to what people add, food addition can add significant amounts of iodine. Some foods will even allow for a 100% turnover of iodine per day--that is the .06ppm added DAILY, just from certain foods! To be honest, I am glad my protein skimmer removes iodine.
I do agree that they can and do remove important factors in the food chain, such as planktonic organisms, etc. It is up to the individual aquarist to determine which particular scenario (lower nutrients or higher amounts of food sources) will benefit their tank the most--probably a combination of the two, maybe lighter skimming in certain instances. That, of course, is why this is a debate
Shawnts106
New member
I agree completly that you cant get nutrients that low with that setup... of course... HOWEVER
Nutrients do NOT need to be "0" You need to have a good bit of disolved organics to feed things... if youve got none youve got problems IMO
Flatlander
Premium Member
:lol: I never had problems with my dump tray. Salt creep was always confined to the inside of the unit but I also modified the dump chute. I lost some surge but little salt creep.
Mine was as expensive as a top of the line skimmer.
But cant say one works better than the other. It would be nice if one would define itself more so than the other, but I always seemed to need one to help the other. 
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