THE GREAT SKIMMERLESS DEBATE! join on in

[J4Life]

I thought I would just add a quick little note on my experience thus far with keeping SPS and no skimming. Tank is a 75 gallon with 20 gallon sump and partitioned off for some macro algae growth.

Secret recipe, I have none. Coral coloration excellent and no skimmer. I do use carbon and change out once a month along with a monthly water change, dose weekly Kent Tech CB, Turbo cal, Kent PH/DKH buffer and add Iodine.

Feed everyday once a day at night. Have 5 fish, lots of crabs, snails, purple lobster, fire shrimp, anemone crab. Mixed tank of SPS, LPS, & Softies. Several leathers which are not suppose to be combined with SPS so I have read or heard.

Lighting is 2, 250 watt 10k XM's on ARO eb's and sup with 2, 110 watt URI Super Actinic R's. MH's are 10 inches from the surface and run only 8 hours a day. VHO's 10 hours and 14 inches from surface. Circulation is excellent using MAG 7 pump split to two returns and using 4 Maxijet pumps for circulation.

Personally to me I think skimmers are just way overpriced and therefore I refuse to by one. I do have an old CPR bakpak skimmer that I used for awhile when I believed I needed one. Now I am not so sure. I don't care that my water isn't crystal clear its clear enough that I can see everything and no yellowing, so no skimmer for me. I plan on upgrading to a 225 gallon in the future and I won't use a skimmer, cal reactor, kalk reactor or any other expensive equipment either.

I will post some pictures as soon as I can get some good ones. I do have some in my gallery if you want to get an idea what my tank does look like.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[oligotrophic]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7643722#post7643722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by G-money
I can't really buy that. Upgrading lights (assuming higher output) is going to decrease zoox density and result in a more pastel looking coral - practically every time, nutrients aside.

BB is also just generally a lower nutrient environment (less potential for nutrient retention). When there are multiple variables such as "I went BB" and "I upgraded my skimmer", there's no way to definitively say it's due to too much skimming. One variable at a time.

IMO, overskimming is largely a myth. Just because a tank is lacking some certain growth or color "factor(s)" doesn't mean it's because they're being skimmed out. Maybe they're not there in the first place. People have this notion that almost everything and anything can be skimmed, when in reality it's a very select group of molecules that are susceptible. Which is why commercial entities never rely solely on skimming to keep their water clean. It's not the be all-end all of nutrient removal.

In the end, I'm with Big E - it's about finding that sweet spot and it usually happens by accident.

Very cool post. Shows that until today the theory we have had not reached a state of confirmed certainty. Experimentation / discovery is still required to reach that "sweet spot".

 

[salt-rookie]

I fear risking the overfeeding of fish food increases the possibility of spiking PO4. I feed a VERY small amount of Phytomax (Concentrated dead Phyto) this prevents an algae bloom, and the 5 mirogram and 50 microgram Golden Pearls. I stop skimming for two hours after lights out, then resume skimming. This allows the corals to feed, and then strips the excess nutrients. I do this 3 times a week, and maintain 15% water changes every Sunday morning. My corals grow and the colors are very intense. I run 3 X 250 watt XM 10K bulbs on M58 ballasts, supplemented with 2 X 110 6' URI Suoer Actinic tubes on ARO ballast. My photo period is 1 hour Actenic, 11 nours MH, 1 hour actenic. I burn the actenics all day also...They kick in early and out last as a dusk to dawn.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7643722#post7643722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by G-money


BB is also just generally a lower nutrient environment (less potential for nutrient retention). When there are multiple variables such as "I went BB" and "I upgraded my skimmer", there's no way to definitively say it's due to too much skimming. One variable at a time.

You can't isolate to one variable.

Too much skimming/too little feeding/too low nutrients are all the same thing.

If you're not feeding enough to keep your corals colored up, you're skimming too heavy for your current bioload. Theyre all just different ways of saying the same thing:

Too much nutrient export, too little import.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7656019#post7656019 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by J4Life


Personally to me I think skimmers are just way overpriced and therefore I refuse to by one. I do have an old CPR bakpak skimmer that I used for awhile when I believed I needed one. Now I am not so sure. I don't care that my water isn't crystal clear its clear enough that I can see everything and no yellowing, so no skimmer for me.

Thats why I bought a Reef Octopus NW200. Cheaper than the acrylic its made of (8" tube skimmer, $189).

I couldnt go skimmerless. I've got 12 fish in a 58.

 

[J4Life]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7657471#post7657471 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Thats why I bought a Reef Octopus NW200. Cheaper than the acrylic its made of (8" tube skimmer, $189).

I couldnt go skimmerless. I've got 12 fish in a 58.

How do you know? Have you ever tried? There are other ways to reduce waste besides skimming. Also 12 fish could or could not be a lot depending on the species and size of the fish.

I honestly am not convinced that skimming is really a requirement to keeping healthy colorful corals in a reef tank.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7657523#post7657523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by J4Life
How do you know? Have you ever tried? There are other ways to reduce waste besides skimming. Also 12 fish could or could not be a lot depending on the species and size of the fish.

I honestly am not convinced that skimming is really a requirement to keeping healthy colorful corals in a reef tank.

No, I didnt try without a skimmer. I did try with a much smaller skimmer, and the tank wasnt what I wanted it to be. Now its much nicer.

Most of my fish are Halicoeres/Cirrhilabrus/Macropharangydon, so not all that small. We're not talking tangs, but we're not talking gobies either.



J4Life, I just looked at your gallery (nice looking tank). It looks like you're almost all softies, and LPS. Its much easier to keep those things without a skimmer than it is to keep SPS.

 

[J4Life]

Thanks I have SPS as well they were all just small frags when I took those pictures. I have a pretty balanced blend between SPS, LPS, & Softies and will be adding more SPS very soon. Right now the SPS that I have are:

Pink Milli, Red Cap, Green Cap, Orange Cap, Pink Birdsnest, Tri-color Validia, Blue Tort, Pink Pavona, Green Psammocora contigua, Orange Montipora digitata.

I think I have more SPS than LPS now that I have counted up the SPS. It's suprising when you realize what you have when you start to take inventory of things.

My LPS are:

Green Hammer, Pinkish Frogspawn, Trumpet Coral, Red Lobo brain, Green w/red center blasto, red acan enchinata, green & red chalice, Green Hydnophora, Orange Tubastrea Sun Coral in overflow of all places

I guess I am even on LPS and SPS. Go figure....unless I missed something.

By the way I had to look up those fish names. Not familiar with the scientific names as much as I probably should be. Those are some nice species of wrasse you have. I have a 6 line who is an absolute pig. I watched him destroy a bristle worm that was much bigger than he probably should have been eating, but good old piggy ate it anyways.

 

[marinelife]

I removed my skimmer last weekend and so far so good, I have large fish and wondered what will happen, I added a fuge with a 250 watt light over it growing cheato. The skimmer was only on the tank 2 years after the tank had been skimmerless for 4 years. I added the skimmer to see if it would make a difference and in fear that the fish getting large would cause problems. With the skimmer on it did not look any different than when I ran it without

 

[salt-rookie]

I also use an undersized skimmer. This take the HEAVY load of organics out of the water, but leaves substantial nutrients to feed the coral polyps. I know there is a raging arguement about correct levels of nutrients in a reef tank, I'm not trying to convert anyone...Its just the way MY tank does best!

 

[G-money]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7657456#post7657456 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
You can't isolate to one variable.

Which is exactly what I'm saying - you can't isolate to one variable, so how can you point to one factor (or lack thereof - i.e. skimming)? You can't. There's more to it than that.

Too much skimming/too little feeding/too low nutrients are all the same thing.

If you're not feeding enough to keep your corals colored up, you're skimming too heavy for your current bioload. Theyre all just different ways of saying the same thing:

Too much nutrient export, too little import.

But it's not that simple. Figure that first off, most of us use artificial salt mixes and we have no idea what's in them as far as levels of things that may be "poisonous" to corals (and/or zoox) if present in sufficient concentration - and we have no firm idea of how the coral (and/or zoox) would respond to many of them, but zoox decline is a pretty common toxic response. Second, many people use ferric phosphate removers, having a primary component that is known to cause decreased coloration and even total bleaching if it accumulates in the tank. Third, you have the whole interrelationship between coloration, nutrient availability and lighting that affects major factors such as zoox and pigment densities.

Skimming doesn't factor into much of that and all of it will have an effect on color.

I'm also curious as to how it seems to be common knowledge that "coloration factors" for lack of a better word, are both skimmable and provided by food (or fish waste). The colors in my tank were just the same when I had 3 fish as the are now with 8 and I skim the same and feed more. I suppose that would be because I've always skimmed too much? Mind you, I'm not complaining about the colors....and didn't in the past either.

In the end, this doesn't really have much to do with going skimmerless, but since it's about skimming....

 

[Shawnts106]

IMO, overskimming is largely a myth. Just because a tank is lacking some certain growth or color "factor(s)" doesn't mean it's because they're being skimmed out.

WOPPE there mr dude sir! hey now....

I would say, that overskimming is NOT a myth... You can take out TOO much nutrients that cause the zooxantheallea (sp?) to not be able to feed off that and have to rely upon light as its only food source. and ... if there is too much or too little light, you have a problem.


I have stopped skimmer with my ASMG2 on my 75 gallon and my Torch and Hammer are looking MUCH MUCH better... now I have to say that its a skimming issue... whats odd, is I cant seem to get rid of those pestering Dino's.... but when I stopped skimming those 2 euphyllias perked up quite a bit!

Maybe this has to do with disolved O2 levels? maybe has to do with nutrients... I dont know yet. but this is quite interesting!


I just relized this WHOLE THREAD is pointless....

There are FARRRRRRRRR>>> to many variables to sort through and weed out. WAY to many.... I mean think about it, everything from size of tank, # of fish, size of fish, fish diet, fish matabolizm(sp?), lighting, water chemistry, nitrate, phosphate, water being used, salinity, macroalgaes... its CRAZYY!!!

>>> Maybe it is pointless, maybe its not...

 

[gman0526]

Zoox rely on light for their food, the coral relies on the zoox and some other nutrients (be it bacteria, fecal matter, zooplankton, minute food partcles, etc.).

 

[G-money]

Shawn,

Zoox are provided the bulk of nutrients by the coral host. Any simple text on coral biology will tell you that this is how they typically get their nutrients in the wild. If there are enough nutrients in the water column to feed zoox, they're also going to feed nuisance algae - you can bet on it. That's not a healthy system. It's in excess. That's what destroys natural reefs.

If you look at ambient nutrients on a reef in the wild and nutrients in an "overskimmed" tank, the real reef is still going to be ambiently cleaner. Nutrients on the reef are recylced very tightly, there's just more food availability. In the end, you cannot overskim. You just can't.....but you can feed too little. Too little in quantity and too little of the right food(s). That doesn't mean you're taking too much out. You just aren't putting enough in. There is a difference there.

 

[Amphiprion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7663973#post7663973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by G-money
Shawn,

Zoox are provided the bulk of nutrients by the coral host. Any simple text on coral biology will tell you that this is how they typically get their nutrients in the wild. If there are enough nutrients in the water column to feed zoox, they're also going to feed nuisance algae - you can bet on it. That's not a healthy system. It's in excess. That's what destroys natural reefs.

If you look at ambient nutrients on a reef in the wild and nutrients in an "overskimmed" tank, the real reef is still going to be ambiently cleaner. Nutrients on the reef are recylced very tightly, there's just more food availability. In the end, you cannot overskim. You just can't.....but you can feed too little. Too little in quantity and too little of the right food(s). That doesn't mean you're taking too much out. You just aren't putting enough in. There is a difference there.

Agreed. The amount of food needed to approximate the natural amount in an area roughly the size of our tanks would be tremendous--easily more than any of our tanks could handle.

 

[Shawnts106]

If you look at ambient nutrients on a reef in the wild and nutrients in an "overskimmed" tank, the real reef is still going to be ambiently cleaner. Nutrients on the reef are recylced very tightly, there's just more food availability. In the end, you cannot overskim. You just can't.....but you can feed too little. Too little in quantity and too little of the right food(s). That doesn't mean you're taking too much out. You just aren't putting enough in. There is a difference there.

Thanks for that information, Im sure that helps everyone!


But why did my euphyllias start doing better when I stopped skimming...

I only feed my fish once every other or every 3 days.. so could that have anything to do with it?

 

[thefuture]

i have a question for those got a skimmer after being skimerless for a while. did you loose the sponges, pods and etc ("life") that being skimerless gave you when u threw a skimer on?

 

[marinelife]

When I added a skimmer, I did see a reduction in Sponges and feather dusters, now that I am skimmerless again, I am see them coming back

 

[Amphiprion]

Even with a large skimmer, my tank still has plenty of all of them. Mine ran for a while without a skimmer--never noticed a difference except in the clarity of the water and the amount of algae.

 

[thefuture]

so what if u skim dry or wet? does this also affect life or is it all one in the same