The iwan method?

[Horace]

Also are the T5s that you guys run overdriven? I am struggling to decide if I should go with 4x54w T5 overdriven to 80w which will be a total of 320w, or stick with my 6x54w at 324w. Most would think its a no brainer and go with the 6x54w but this is not such an easy decision. The 4x overdriven will actually be more intense lights which will penetrate the water much better than the normally driven ones. Also it would mean only replacing 4 bulbs rather than 6 every rotation.

What is typical for you guys running SPS and T5s???

 

[Sloeber]

wow, after looking at that list, i will never complain about the maintenance associated with my calcium reactor again! :lol:

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6837444#post6837444 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DKKA
Iwan, Simon, which came first, the probio additives or the T5's?

Or, if you prefer: to which do you attribute the greater success of your system?

Also, Simon, in the first picture how old is the birdnest?

Thanks,

Dan

Hi Dan

My reef has been T5s for the 5 months of its life- so the changes to the hysterix are due to the super poor ntrients arrising from Prodibio use. The frag was put in 2 months before prodi was dosed.

However, there was a point at 7 weeks after Prodi where the hysterix showed signs of bleaching - not on the tips or the base but in the central upper middle stems which were going white - nutrient starvation(?) which is when I started dosing Zeo AAHC - and this has brought the polip color back to vibrant pink. I have also experienced growth spurts with Zeo CV.

IME its the synergistic effect of these that gets the results.

If you love your MHs - take a look at Iwans before after shots on his thread. Also Tangblack uses prodi with MHs and his coloration is v nice too.

Cheers

Simon

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6837479#post6837479 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Horace
I have one of the more knowledgable people in the country who lives 20 mins away and will help me out if and when I need it.

It is really helpful to have a zeo expert close by esp when u are in thier first and second phases- do keep us posted on your experiences - in terms of going zeo - you mean going ZB4? because the Iwan method uses the non ZB4 zeo elemets to enhance color.
Cheers

Simon

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6837503#post6837503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Horace
Also are the T5s that you guys run overdriven? I am struggling to decide if I should go with 4x54w T5 overdriven to 80w which will be a total of 320w, or stick with my 6x54w at 324w. Most would think its a no brainer and go with the 6x54w but this is not such an easy decision. The 4x overdriven will actually be more intense lights which will penetrate the water much better than the normally driven ones. Also it would mean only replacing 4 bulbs rather than 6 every rotation.

What is typical for you guys running SPS and T5s???

I use the normal D&Ddeltec ballasts - would be interesting to hear about any experience with the overdriven ones too.

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6837890#post6837890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hcs3
wow, after looking at that list, i will never complain about the maintenance associated with my calcium reactor again! :lol:

ROTFL Its far easier in the doing than in the writing

Cheers

Simon

 

[Yodeling]

Interestingââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

I was convinced that Iwanââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s success had more to do with his use of T5s (because of the broader color spectrum provided) and his arsenal of good corals (along with good flow/stabile parametersââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦all the usual) But judging from Simonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s success achieved in a few short weeks under the same lighting conditions, evidence points to his use of ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œprodibioââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ products being responsible. That would mean that the ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œDSB/well fed bacteriaââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ method is *very* efficient in eliminating nutrients from the water. The question remains, is it more efficient that the current US trend (BB/Ozone/giant skimmer). This approach is certainly much cheaper, and there are some glorious BB SPS tanks out there. As someone who is going to be upgrading to a new bigger tank fairly soon, Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢d be very interested in finding out which is better. Has anyone seen any before and after or side-by-side comparisons of BB vs DSB/prodibio/zeovit? If so, please post links.

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6847831#post6847831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yodeling
Interestingââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

Has anyone seen any before and after or side-by-side comparisons of BB vs DSB/prodibio/zeovit? If so, please post links.

Hi Yodeling

I have a BB tank - the MSB is in the sump and is approx 20% of the floor space of the tank and 3 inches deep. My UV is still plummed in - but off - its there in case of emergencies.

My LR/Gallon ratio is 0.57/1

Just some further info for your deliberations.

Cheers

SImon

 

[Horace]

One note on BB and Zeovit. I would think that running Zeovit would keep your nutrients down pretty much indefinatly where as Iwans method, though it works hella good obviously, may not work as long. With Zeo you replace the Zeoliths every 4-6 weeks which means your getting fresh "filter" material in there all the time. With a DSB this does not happen. I would think that eventually the usefulness of the DSB would run out where with Zeo the nutrient sink is constantly being removed.

Thats just my little theory on this anyway. I could be way off, but it sounds pretty logical to me.

 

[lglamb]

I'm missing something in the

n(Cultured Bacteria + feeding same) + DSB = low nutrients.

How does creating and feeding a predominant bacteria population
decrease the overall nutrient levels?


Dumbo^2

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6848976#post6848976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Horace
One note on BB and Zeovit. I would think that running Zeovit would keep your nutrients down pretty much indefinatly where as Iwans method, though it works hella good obviously, may not work as long. With Zeo you replace the Zeoliths every 4-6 weeks which means your getting fresh "filter" material in there all the time. With a DSB this does not happen. I would think that eventually the usefulness of the DSB would run out where with Zeo the nutrient sink is constantly being removed.

Thats just my little theory on this anyway. I could be way off, but it sounds pretty logical to me.

It will be interesting to see in a few years. However Iwan does replace the top layer of his dsb periodically which will no doubt have an impact on dsb longlevity down the line. I chose BB - before I came across the Iwan method and will stick with it - I'v never liked all that gunk in the sand bed on previous tanks. Personally I dont think a classic dsb is critical - just enough suface area for the bac to attach too, plus the additional buffering elements that aragonite supplies.

I dont know if ZB4 is better or not in that respect - its certainly more expensive at the prices US retailers charge:eek2:

Cheers

Simon

 

[David MC Lee]

My question here is: Would what iwan does be close enough to the zoevit system that people "henry" would say its dangerous to your corals. Not trying to pick on you henry but I would like to here your comments on what iwan is doing. I still really don't understand how the zoevit is dangerous. If zeovit really is dangerous and iwans is not dangerous why? I would just like to here both points of view.

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6849173#post6849173 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lglamb
I'm missing something in the

n(Cultured Bacteria + feeding same) + DSB = low nutrients.

How does creating and feeding a predominant bacteria population
decrease the overall nutrient levels?


Dumbo^2

Yes . The principle behind probiotic methods (prodi and ZB4)is that regular dosing of bacteria that are known to be active all the way down the nitrogen cycle chain ultimately converts nutients that arnt used by corals and other oranisism along the way - into gases which escapes at the water surface. Different bac strains target different elements in the nitrogen cycle - similar to the effect of composting organic material in the garden - all kinds of deeply disgusting **** are converted in compost heaps into healthy usable material. Its natures way. Over time - in a closed captive reef - the proportional microbal biodiversity can become distorted as they are closed systems rather than open like the ocean which constantly moves life arround - hense the fresh innoculations to keep it on track.

The high tec solution can work also and is superior if there is a bacteriological or viral disease that has weakened the corals or fish to the point where thier immune systems cant cope with fighting off the challenge. However prevention is better than cure. A dentist is superior to fixing a fault than a tooth brush, but as the dentists say keep on brushing and you wont need to see us. We fight off disease but innoculating our babies to boost thier systems - we dont wait to barrier nurse them in sterile vacum tents if they fall ill. Loose the bacteria in your stomac and you get diahreah - sure you can be drip fed - but you are weak until the stomac bacs recover.

The current US trend to BB Ozone UV is actually harking back 2-3 decades - Martin Moe described it all in detail way back reflecting the state of the art back then - the Berlin method. Its good stuff - but old thinking in the light of the advances made in understanding the chains and webs of micro life of a captive reef and the knock on effects upwards in the food chain.

The US adaptation of the French Jubert system ie the DSB - looked like good progress at the time because of a much greater emphasis on the lower parts of the eco web - until imballence eventually took over and 'old tank synrome' emerged. Some people retreated headlong back to the old BB/Ozone/UV approach - others have moved forward as described.

We used to say we arn't coral keepers we are water param keepers, now to add to that we are also microbe keepers.

HTH

Simon

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6850569#post6850569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by David MC Lee
My question here is: Would what iwan does be close enough to the zoevit system that people "henry" would say its dangerous to your corals. Not trying to pick on you henry but I would like to here your comments on what iwan is doing. I still really don't understand how the zoevit is dangerous. If zeovit really is dangerous and iwans is not dangerous why? I would just like to here both points of view.

I'll just chime in here - since I'm here this moment - then get of back to england

Zeovit can be dangerous if:

1) the giuidelines arnt followed - because the system can strip out nutirents so fast the corals cant cope. The zeolites used in zeovit adsorb fast - and dont give enough time for adaptation. This is the ZB4 element. Prodi on the other hand does it naturally - no adsorbtion - just decomposition.

The second part of the Iwan method is use of the non ZB4 dependant zeo nutirents and elements - some of these do have contra indications too and must be used sentitively, but not dangerous if used inteligently.

2) Zeo start1 was associated with problems - a reformulated zeo start2 is said to be less risky.

We need to move slowly slowly with adjusting the solution our corals live in. Change alk too fast and there could be problems - like wise PH etc etc. The same principle applies to these approaches - edge forward gradually - dose - observe - adjust

JMO

Hope I haven't outstayed your welcome

Simon

 

[Horace]

TryTheChi, I think everyone appreciates your input. Not many here know much about either method and are starting to see the success around the world with different methods than those held dear here in the US.

As for Henry saying Zeo can be dangerous, I really dont think he had any idea about zeo stripping nutrients too fast. I have a feeling that like alot of other "skeptics" he is basically bashing the whole idea. My theory as to why he is so skeptical is because the Zeo manufacturer wont tell anyone how the system really works scientifically and what is in each additive. Coupled with the fact that it is expensive, he simply sees it as a big scam and something that you could easily achieve via his well accepted methods. Personally I could really care less how the stuff works so long as it works if I follow the instructions. I dont have time to be a marine biologist. I am perfectly fine with an expert telling me how to do things to achieve success. Also if I hadnt seen it with my own eyes, and seen it repeated by many others, I would probably be skeptical too.

 

[David MC Lee]

Thanks TryTheChi I/we appreciate your input. I wanted to here Henry response due to the fact he is a good friend of mine and I have a lot of respect for his vast knowledge. Donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think either system is a fit for him because he likes a low tech approach that does not take a lot of interactions and constant monitoring. There is nothing wrong with that, I on the other hand monitor my tank constantly and wonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t leave it for more than a day with out someone watching it. I ran some number and it looks like it would cost about $1000 per year for me to run iwan system. My tanks is more or less 3000 liters. Does that sound about right? I would like to see how your tank and others do over the next few months before I make a decision. Doing some of the maintenance for my party last week seem to have help to bring my ORP back up a bit. I also added new bulbs. I plan to keep reading up on all of this and try to get a much better understanding of it all.
If you come across other people using iwan method could you put a link in here. I would also like to know how interested any local CIMA people are at this point?

 

[Horace]

To be honest David, most folks in this hobby are not as hard core as some of us (im getting there ). However, believe me when I say this, its not as complicated as it sounds. Pretty much the daily maintenance, atleast with the Zeo method is nothing more than pumping your reactor for a few secs, and putting a few drops of 2 or 3 additives per day. Then once a month you replace your zeoliths. Thats all man.
When I first heard about it, even after seeing the success of Jeff's tank, I was still skeptical of weather or not its worth it or not. Plus I assumed it was to expensive. Well it turns out its not THAT expensive and not quite as complicated as I thought. So at some point, hopefully soon I may try it. I will definatly let you all know if I do and document my success/failures.

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6859359#post6859359 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by David MC Lee
I ran some number and it looks like it would cost about $1000 per year for me to run iwan system. My tanks is more or less 3000 liters. Does that sound about right?

If you come across other people using iwan method could you put a link in here.

Hi David

If 3000 ltrs is your net volume - $1000 pa sounds about right if you buy from european suppliers - a fair bit more if you buy from US merchants.

The Prodi element by itself will cost you $757 pa on 3k net. The best thing to do IMO if you are considering it is to trial the prodi for 12 weeks and see it you think its worth it - that would cost you @ $189 - minus 17.5% eu sales tax plus shipping. If you are pleased with the results you get - move on to trialing the zeo elements.

Re others' experiences - I think the US importer was intending to set up a prodi forum and in the mean time Iwan thread is probably the place to keep an eye out for other people's experiences.

There is one person who is running 3 tanks - full zeo b4, just prodi and zeo b4 without the zeolites. He has reported privately that the first 2 have the same effect so he may well post up his results on Iwans thread in due course.

Best of luck to CIMA - I'll unsuscribe now - nothing personal - its just that I dont live in Illinois and I'v offered up the key issues to contemplate and my experience to date, and have some time constraints being just a hobbyist :rollface:

Cheers for now and best wishes

Simon

 

[RV8tor]

David

I am very interested as well, keep me in mind for a group order.

 

[InlandAqua]

I'm a little slow responding to your question david but after the past 6 months of seeing in person and pics of various top notch, beautiful sps tanks I still do not believe it is one element to reaching that goal.
I have looked at systems with BB and DSB, Algae turf Scrubber and protein skimming, weekly water changes and monthly water changes, calcium dosing versus no dosing, HQI, VHO, T5......and the only conclusion I have come to is I really like the T5 look of corals and it "seems"(visual interpretation only)that low nutrient tanks produce better sps coloration....more frequent water changes, quality skimmers (sometimes used with ATS) also produces "brighter color" sps .
I hope to take pics of various systems and let you evaluate and tell me your thoughts and opinions.
BTW one of my employees really likes the Zeovit...and he has a killer tank. I dont have any first hand experience with it.
I'll try to get the pics ASAP.
Mike