The Oceans pH Level Is Falling

Status
Not open for further replies.
What does that have to with elevating atmospheric CO2 and seawater pH?

But is exhailing more then it is absorbing?

Of course not. That's what a budget is, a net influx of CO2 into the ocean that is accepted by all atmospheric and oceanographic scientists that I have ever seen printed.

Have you ever seen otherwise, anywhere, by anyone who is well versed in atmospheric science?

A question that must arise from NOAA’s study is this one:

“Why does the air blowing from the west, from over the great Pacific ocean, contain a higher concentration of CO2 than the same air mass after it has passed over the human-developed terrestrial system in North America?”


Didn't they address this question right above your question, without resorting to suggesting the oceans are a source of CO2?

In any case, the nature of the dirtribution is quibbling a detail about of the levels of CO2 in the air and the exact sources and sinks. No one suggests the oceans are a source.
 
I consider myself an educated man, but this discussion is starting to creep slowly above my head. Way to go smarty smart smarts. Your killing this debate with your intellectual thinking. I keep trying to read all the posts but allocating so much brain power to understanding them has cause certain motor functions to shut down. I don't mind so much crapping my pants but when my breathing shuts on and off, I get worried.

Let me just say this.

"OH YEAH?"

Take that.

Mike
 
At this point its so above my head that Im going to say that the person with the higher post count must be right!

SO

Randy pick up your trophy :)

Hippiesmell nice try but you don't have the posts to Win

MCary,, Ditto

Kalkbreath & Poedag at only 120+ posts you could not possibly know what your talking about :D Poedag you get an A+ in the artistic area for those pretty graphs.

For those of you who thought post counts don't count, now you know that us idiots use them to decide who's right and who's wrong. end of story LOL :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7733569#post7733569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kalkbreath
If that state is one of the leading worlds producers of Co2, then why are the Co2 levels higher in the middle of the Pacific then readings to the west of California in middle America?(which is down wind)

and why is the air seem to be purified when it travel over America?could it be that the American new growth forests are actually acting as Carbon sinks and locking in the Co2 coming into North America from the Pacific?
I mean if I clear cut my backyard and built a second house with the lumber, then replanted pine trees .......would this not actually help to sink CO2 more so then leaving my property as an untouched old growth Forrest?
Man made landscapes take in much more modern co2 then old growth forrests.
It has also been reported that one good sized California wild fire produces more C02 then ten years of Calif auto emmisions.(and mount St Hellen more Co2 then all the Co2 ever produced by America.)
Of the past 200 years of increasing atmospheric Co2 levels , only two years saw a decrease in those levels.
Those years occurred at a remarkable time in modern history.
It was during World War II !
What could it have been about that time in world events which would have led to a decrease the Co2 in the air world wide?
It sure seems like its more directly connected to the number of humans on the planet , then it is the number of autos.
I'm not sure what to say about some of the anecdotal evidence you give, but I can guess. The US is actually, from papers I've read, a CO2 sink. It sounds funny, but it might be true. And it is, so they say, from massive deforestation in the 1800's. It was, incidentally, an argument against the Kyoto treaty. I sure hope you aren't advocating we cut down all the old-growth forests because of this.

I haven't read the Science article Randy posted, because I don't have access at the moment, and it sounds like you question regarding the different levels of CO2 over the Pacific and over the US are answered there. My guess, and it could be wrong, are the emissions produced by SE Asia. I would imagine they drift over the Pacific towards the US.

Your last comment concerning CO2 and WWII is interesting, but may be coincidence. Maybe the fact that Europe was a wasteland had something to do with it. I bet overall factory production went down during that time. You also say that you think CO2 has more to do with the number of people than the number of cars. Either way, you attribute increasing CO2 levels to people.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7735539#post7735539 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
I consider myself an educated man, but this discussion is starting to creep slowly above my head. Way to go smarty smart smarts. Your killing this debate with your intellectual thinking. I keep trying to read all the posts but allocating so much brain power to understanding them has cause certain motor functions to shut down. I don't mind so much crapping my pants but when my breathing shuts on and off, I get worried.

Let me just say this.

"OH YEAH?"

Take that.

Mike
Lol, throwing in the towel, eh?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7736246#post7736246 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RobbyG
At this point its so above my head that Im going to say that the person with the higher post count must be right!

SO

Randy pick up your trophy :)

Hippiesmell nice try but you don't have the posts to Win

MCary,, Ditto

Kalkbreath & Poedag at only 120+ posts you could not possibly know what your talking about :D Poedag you get an A+ in the artistic area for those pretty graphs.

For those of you who thought post counts don't count, now you know that us idiots use them to decide who's right and who's wrong. end of story LOL :D
Congrats, Randy. Here's a picture of last year's winner with the trophy. It's a nice trophy!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
With all the mess we are causing on this planet, I still dont think we can do any permanent harm to the planet. As we continue to mess things up, the planet will keep on messing US up to the point it will eventually rid its self of us completly and then heal.
 
LOL LOL you hippies are so rude:D!
BTW as runner up what do you get ;) ?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7737279#post7737279 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
Congrats, Randy. Here's a picture of last year's winner with the trophy. It's a nice trophy!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Exactly, the first time I heard that was from George Carlin after he gave up on his environmental crusade. Give the planet 2 million years and everything will be back to normal except for those nasty little humans who will be gone.

The funny thing is that this may have happened before! What have we built that could last 2 million years and even if we did how far underground would it be by now? The only place to put evidence that would last would be on the Moon.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7737587#post7737587 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Coral Dilema
With all the mess we are causing on this planet, I still dont think we can do any permanent harm to the planet. As we continue to mess things up, the planet will keep on messing US up to the point it will eventually rid its self of us completly and then heal.
 
Actualy what didnt happen during WWII was fishing!
During the ten year period of Global bomb throwing and City tourching......While man made C02 release was at an all time high during the end of the war........Co2 levels were not!
The Oceans, having not been fished much by commercial fishing , regained some strenth .
Fish stocks rebounded .(locking up Co2 in fish stocks like an new growth forrest)
References have been made to the significant increases in fish and seal stocks in the North Sea and elsewhere in the North Atlantic by the end of the war. The biological activity that led to the building of those larger fish stocks is the same activity that briefly drew down more CO2 from the atmosphere, and caused the “glitch” in the graph.
Could it be that fishing has been the root of Co2 increases all the while?
A few short centuries ago we started with this sort of fish stock assessment:

“It is probably impossible for anyone now alive to comprehend the magnitude of fish life in the waters of the New World when the European invasion began. It may have been almost equally difficult for the early voyagers. According to the record they have left for us, they seem to have been overwhelmed by the glut of fishes.

In 1497, John Cabot set the tone by describing the Grand Banks as so ‘swarming with fish [that they] could be taken not only with a net but in baskets let down [and weighted] with a stone.’ On the lower St. Lawrence in 1535 Jacques Cartier reported that ‘This river...is the richest in every kind of fish that anyone remembers ever having seen or heard of; for from its mouth to its head you will find in their season the majority of the varieties of salt- and fresh-water fish...great numbers of mackerel, mullet, sea bass, tunnies, large eels...quantities of lampreys and salmon...[in the uper River] are many pike, trout, carp, bream and other fresh-water fish.’” (Mowat, 1984)

So, people arriving on the eastern coast of North America 500 years ago were “overwhelmed by the glut of fishes.” And now...after a few centuries of plying our fishing industries, we are left with this sort of assessment (recent comments from a respected marine biologist on the changes that he has witmessed in the span of his career):

“Essentially, if we compare the amount of fish, the biomass of fish before the introduction of industrial fishing in various parts of the world, what is left, the relationship is about 1 to 10 roughly; that is you go into the Gulf of Thailand, you catch if you’re 20 kilograms per hour with a standard trawl. Then in the 60s you would catch 200, 300 kilogram per hour with a standard trawl so you have a fact of 10. And this fact of 10, that’s what you find in a lot of fisheries...For things like seabirds and sea turtles and large marine mammals, we probably have much less than 10%, perhaps 1%, perhaps even less. Turtles, it’s a disaster. Some species of marine mammals are extinct.” (Daniel Pauly, 1998)

Can removing 90% of the biomass from something a big as 3/5ths of the surface of the planet,,,,, not have an effect?

"The ocean contains more than 98% of the global resevoir of mobile carbon...Thus changes in the physical and/or biological setup of the ocean were probably the main causes for observed glacial-interglacial changes in the chemical composition of the atmosphere...It is changes in total nutrients in the ocean (nutrient inventories) or changes in the efficiency with which marine production uses available nutrients (Redfield ratios, new production at high latitudes) that have the largest relative effect on atmospheric CO2 levels via the action of the marine biosphere.” and, regarding his ocean modelling work, “the assumption being that the deep interior is as yet relatively unaffected by the anthropogenic perturbations.”(Shaffer, 1993)

And with big time fishing starting fifty to one hundred years prior to the industrial revolution..........It makes sense that was also when the Co2 levels began to upturn.
Fishing was well established and advanced before 1800. Many populations of marine creatures had been severely depleted, a few to extinction, before that date. Just to name a few, there were the great auk, the walrus, Steller's sea cow, the Atlantic gray whale and the other great whales. The slaughter of sea life was well advanced, and even then, at the beginning of the nineteenth century, fishermen were voicing concerns about the declining numbers of fish in the sea.

Keep in mind that this IS a water planet.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7738390#post7738390 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RobbyG
Exactly, the first time I heard that was from George Carlin after he gave up on his environmental crusade. Give the planet 2 million years and everything will be back to normal except for those nasty little humans who will be gone.

Exactamundo! Everybody please take a moment (and a valium) and read the following:

http://www.habitablezone.com/flame/messages/420992.html

"The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere.... WE ARE!"

This guy is the only one that I beleive in.
 
Is that one of Carlin's "comedy" bits.
I'm sorry but I don't think he's funny at all anymore. I'm not even a hippie. I just think he's boring.

Saying the F word all the time and talking about how stupid everyone around him is is not my idea of comedy.

If I did that people wouldn't pay to see me. I don't know how he does it.
 
:lol: I LOVE George Carlin! He always has a way of putting things into perspective.

He does it because he discusses things intellectually while he's at it... you can have colorful intellectual discussions. Comedians know what makes us tick and they drive those things home to us... at least a large number of us anyway. It's not like it's a kids show or anything and those who are offended can choose not to watch.

He kinda reminds me of my grandfather and my dad now that I think about it... ;)

But, back on topic, we are human because we have compassion to a degree and many of us would like to avoid harming our planet. Sooo, if we need to repopulate the fish, I'm sure we can attempt that or if we need to try something else... we can attempt that to. I think the goal here first is to gather enough info to tip the scale in the direction of the actual problem.
 
Last edited:
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7739514#post7739514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dreaminmel
:lol: I LOVE George Carlin! He always has a way of putting things into perspective.
...
He kinda reminds me of my grandfather and my dad now that I think about it... ;)

Yeah, I mean, I can just go see my grandfather for free and hear all that stuff.
:lol:

I guess I'm just mad cause no one pays to hear my rhetoric.
 
BTW, Anyone else get Freshwater and Marine Aquarium magazine? They've starting doing a Conservation Corner section and the September issue goes at this issue pretty hard stating at the end "The oceans will continue to absorb CO2 and these problems will persist. Take good care of your reef tank, because it may be the last bastion of the coral reef at some point in the future." Article is done by Joshua Wiegert and Robert Rice and magazine published by BowTie Magazines in CA.

Just thought I'd share as it seemed to have the same "feel" as the originally posted article in this thread from what I gathered...
 
Kalkbreath, I find the fishing theory really interesting. Can you post the exact articles you cited for me? Not the entire article, just the entire citation.

Lol, I actually thought about bringing up that Carlin bit, but I couldn't remember exactly how it went. It's not as funny reading it as actually seeing it. Sure, he's abrasive, and I don't take everything that he says seriously (I mean, he's a comedian), but he takes some truth and throws it in your face.
 
Last edited:
"Since 1958 accurate measurements of atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations have been carried out by Charles D Keeling, first at the Scripps Institute of Oceanography, La Jolla, California, then from 1974 at the Mauna Loa volcano, Hawaii, and subsequently by other scientists at many other places. Most of these sites are in remote places, so the measurements represent the well-mixed background. There is still no proper record of the carbon dioxide concentrations over industrial regions, or over forests and other cultivated regions.

"As I have pointed out frequently (Gray 1998) background carbon dioxide as measured at remote sites has been increasing in the atmosphere at an almost linear rate of about 1.4ppmv per year ever since 1972. The rate seems to be unaffected by the large increase in emissions form combustion of fossil fuels over the period (4.4Gt in 1972 to 6.4Gt in 1995, an increase of 45%).
"
There was a marked fall of about 9ppmv in carbon dioxide concentration during the period of the "Little Ice Age" (about 1550 to 1850) with a period of very slow growth from 1800 to 1850. The authors are of the opinion that this fall in carbon dioxide concentration was caused by the fall in temperature, rather than the other way about. The carbon dioxide concentration in the period after 1850, extending into this century would be influenced by recovery from the Little Ice Age..

"Between 1935 and 1945 the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration was constant, or even declined slightly. The reason for this is unknown.
"
Vincent R. Gray. 1999. Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide.
 
The funny thing is, in the scientific media, where results/models are checked and perr reviewed this argument is done and dusted. It's only the US media that seems to think this argument re: human exaggerated global warming actually continues to be debated.
Oh well, live by the sword, die by the sword - it's somewhat ironic that if there is much of a rise in sealevels the first places to get it will include Houston and New Orleans
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top