The Red Headed Stepchild!

[tgreene]

Yep, that's exactly how my LDS treated me this afternoon when I went in with my new HOG doubles setup to get my tanks filled...

As much as I've tried over to support them, it just seems that everytime they see me with a piece of equipment that they didn't sell me, I get the cold shoulder. Bizarre as it is though, when we were working in Atlanta and my Ikelite C8-LED flooded, they Priority Overnighted one of their personal lights to me and refused to take a penny for the freight, which clearly shows that they actually are great guys that care -- I did buy that light from them.

They don't carry a single bit of "tech" gear and hate doubles and find them to be a rediculous waste, and have actually said so, which to me means that they are seriously creating a "self limiting" issue in regards to potential sales. They would be more than happy to order anyone whatever it is that they want, but since they don't dive or carry any of this type of gear, why would anyone want to spend the extra money when you're not paying for at least a minimum level of expertise..?

Maybe it's just me .. dunno .. probably is! :hmm4:

-Tim

 

[tgreene]

Okay, so I had to go back there again a few minutes ago to let them know that when they rip my tanks back down to do a VISUAL since I installed the manifold and they didn't, that they needed to go ahead and add yet another new Catalina AL80 to my bill and swap valves so that I have 2 Catalinas connected via the doubles manifold, and the older Hymark tank gets the new convertible valve that will come with the new Catalina.

I was informed earlier this morning that I really put a manifold on 2 differnt brand of tanks without risking torquing the crossover due to even the most minute variances in height dimensions... The Hymark was about 1/16" shorter than the Catalina, so there was a tiny wobble between the tanks when sitting upright.

So now I guess I have my 1st 80cf stage bottle, and a LDS that is $190 happier.

That alone brings up an even more interesting element in and of its own, because though I may be buying my regs and bouyancy gear elsewhere, I'm buying a buttload of other "stuff" from them. Hell, this make 5 tanks alone (4 AL80's and 1 AL19) in a year, in a market where a few of the more well equipped guys might own 2 tanks each and most others just own 1 or rent.

-Tim

 

[keezdiver]

dive shops are funny like that.

the one i visit weekly for my job to get tanks filled are on and off about offering those "extra" things.
we spend TONS of money in tank fills and VIP/Hydros per year....i'm talking 15 divers each doing 100-300 dives EACH per year!

sometimes they'll give me a hard time for having to replace an o-ring.
i've had some issues with getting nitrox and air-top-offs before with them too.

i guess its just from having to deal with the "ignorant" general population on such a regular basis.

 

[tgreene]

dive shops are funny like that.

I have noticed a pattern in that if I happen to stop in and NOBODY else is in the shop, then they want to sit and chat about anything and everything and are interested in hearing all about what I'm working on in regards to "further education" beyond what they have or are able to teach me, and even sometimes the gear...

HOWEVER

If there is a new "potential student" that walks through the doors and begins looking at the store stock gear then suddenly I don't exist. They do always make it a point to greet every single customer through the door by name, which is a lot more than what most businesses do, and it's nothing to have a group of DM's & regulars such as myself just hanging out chatting in a corner while the owners (father & son) are taking care of other business, but it really does get frustrating sometimes to get the cold shoulder when you're someone that has spent thou$ands of dollars there in less than a years time. If they had even [utiny[/u] section in regards to the tech gear, then at least 2 of us would be buying locally rather than elsewhere. Hell, if they just wouldn't knock on it it would be fine...

The son is the vocal one about being "anti-tech" and it being a waste of time, but he's also very clear about his refusal to ever do overheads. The father is very up front about "Been there done that, and I'm too old to want to do it again!". He's been around forever and has a low 4-digit instructor number that he's quite proud of, and is pretty matter of fact about how the industry several years ago made a split in common sense and reality in regards to gear, and is pretty up front about the "consumer" market wanting all the soft and fluff stuff, which is why he had to go that route to stay in business. He told me flat out that he loves to see us progress, but that these days those of us that do are in the less than 1% customer profile, and he's probably right in that regard.

I really do like the guys and as a small business owner myself I completely understand their struggles because I have just had to pretty much shut down one of my 2 companies due to a serious lack of business. I do however wish they would see that they need to provide either a lower cost alternative for their customers, or a cross-over product such as the HOG equipment which is very inexpensive and falls under the realm of "tech gear". The father is actually interested in it to the point of checking out Edge-HOG's webiste and then calling them to get the info. He also told me that he does want to place an order so that he can evaluate the products.

-Tim

 

[keezdiver]

its hard from a business standpoint to dedicate time/money/floor space to something that 1% of your clients will use.

not to mention having to educate the staff on how it work, why it may be better for some stuff etc.
and on top of that...tech diving/divers (in my opinion) can be very "elitist" in thier views on technique and gear. which makes selling it that much harder.

having been around alot of different divers (being a fish biologist by profession), i can also tell you that just because some one can dive..doesn't mean they should be given the option to TECH DIVE. giving an idiot more gear to carry underwater and more air to breath isn't always a good thing.

i'm an AVID spearfisherman...and i've found the same lack of inventory and lack of knowledge on spearfishing equipment that you've found on Tech gear. every time i look at the speargun rack at a new shop, they try to sell me some cheezy little gun. hell my wife shoots a bigger gun than most shops even sell


i guess what it boils down to for you is what i've had to do...

you've got the training, you know what you want, best bet is to go to those places that HAVE what you want. for me..that's generally via internet.

having said that....www.divegearexpress.com ROCKS

for more everyday stuff...non-tech...but not usually stocked by most shops its hard to beat leisurepro

 

[tgreene]

DiveGearExpress is where I just bought the harness for my new doubles rig. I'm super familiar with all the quality online shops, but again am just lamenting my frustration over what all to often happens after being forced into having to go the online buying route.

If you can't sell me what I need, then please don't feel jilted when I have to go to someone that can, because I will be back .. really .. I promise I will! :spin1:

Right after I wrote my last post above, I had to go back to the shop to buy the new tank for the doubles, and because I was the only person there, I spent a good hour chatting with the owner (father) and we discussed a lot of gear... Tech gear even. He's seriously contemplating ordering in a HOG Drysuit just to see what they are like and examine the quality, because in addition to myself one other guy (a DM) has expressed a great interest in them. I told him if he's going to do that, then at least order it in MY size and I'll buy it from him on terms so he can make a slight profit on it, and I won't have to buy it elsewhere... This way we both win, and he's actually ahead since he'll more than likely get to sell another one right away to the DM who is interested in one. Yep, it will be a guaranteed sale if it's ordered in my size!

I really don't what the item is, I'll gladly pay upwards of 15% more to support local and sometimes even 20%. When I ordered a complete set of Hogarthian length Miflex hoses, I printed out the order form fgor Leisure Pro and took it to my LDS. The LP price was $170 for the set, and I told them to let me know ahead of time if they would have to charge me more than $225, which was the difference I was willing to pay to give them the sale. The hoses ended up taking 3 weeks to get in through their distributors, but guess what, they charged me the exact same $170 that LP would have charged, which I thought was fantastic and most certainly unexpected. More often than not, they don't charge me for air fills either, which adds to the dilema. :hmm2:

I dunno, maybe it's just that I personally live too far OUTSIDE the box. :spin2:

-Tim

 

[keezdiver]

i love my 5' miflex hose....

saw the new HP miflex in person...not a huge fan. i suppose if i needed to replace the line i'd consider it, but i'm not gonna trade out a good one for it.


thats cool they matched the price...and unexpected.

dive shops here are crazy $$$...most things are 50-100% higher than you can get them online.

i was looking at multi-gas dive computers and the ones they had were priced $400 more than LP. i'm all for supporting the LDS...but i can't afford THAT!!!

got cressi fins for me and my wife....mine were $95 and hers were $85.....LDS had both ...for $150 and $160.

 

[tgreene]

I paid double for my Slingshots just to buy them local, but $225 when LP was $125 was a bit over the top, and they knew that I knew it, because I said do!

 

[keezdiver]

slingshots....are those those fancy mechanical fins?

haha...you'd have been better off with a freediving fin

 

[tgreene]

Yes, and I didn't know any better at the time...

 

[SeaJayInSC]

I'm with you guys on the LDS thing. Same exact experiences here, same exact feelings.

The idea of doubles being a "waste" is a new one to me, though - I've never heard that before. Clearly, they have a purpose - whenever you need more gas than a single can provide, or whever you need true, complete redundancy... Like in either hard overhead (caves, wrecks) or soft overhead (staged decompression). I can certainly understand if someone never wants to do either of those things... But even those that admit that can usually see why doubles would be a need in those conditions.

This concept of "Tech" gear - that is a made-up term by the local dive shop who refuses to sell anything but "beach toy" gear. Clearly, the line between "rec" and "tec" has been seriously blurred with a variety of dive styles and dive gear - it'd be a misnomer and a disservice to both the "tec" and "rec" communities to exclude gear or styles just because it was one or the other.

The GUE DIR "Fundies" course, for example, is classified as a "rec" class - there is nothing "tec" about it. In fact, most of the class is taught in less than 30' of water... Yet, it requires a backplate and wing and is best served in doubles. How would those local dive shop owners refer to the class? What a shame to miss out on all of that beautiful gear, the occassional sale, and the feeling of success when a student exceled to that level of diving - just 'cause you thought the gear was too "techy!"

There was a time when "nitrox" was considered a "tec" breathing gas. Good thing it's not today, hunh? It is, after all, a safer gas at it's prescribed depths, and most divers report a better physiological feeling after a day of diving it than they do on air... What, are we going to pass up those benefits 'cause they're "tec?"

...And what of the diver that accidentally overstays his NDLs? I'm not condoning the practice, of course, but shouldn't even the most recreational of divers be prepared, in case something happens that keeps him down too long? Yet, by definition, anything longer than your NDLs is "tec" and therefore not taught.

EVERY dive is a decompression dive - and there is no such thing as "tec" and "rec." It's all the same - either you're giving your students the tools they need to dive safely, or you're not. There's no in-between.

The mentality reminds me of the older dive computers that would simply "lock out" if you exceeded your NDL. Yeah, great idea... Now that the diver's gone one minute past his NDLs, just lock up, take away all of his gauges, and let him figure it out on his own. Probably in a panic. Nice. :/

Your LDS owners sound like the guys at Charleston Scuba in Charleston, SC... I stopped going there, 'cause I was tired of feeling like the redheaded stepchild. I got tired of explaining to the guy filling my tanks why he didn't need to fill both tanks in a set of doubles, and I got tired of explaining to them why I was slinging a bottle of 50% even though I was diving a local wreck at 100' on a single tank.

I don't visit them anymore. My $20,000 a year habit and I now do our business elsewhere... Usually online, where they simply send me what I want for a great price - no questions asked.

 

[keezdiver]

the more and more i get into diving, and more comfortable i get pushing MY limits...the more i find things ringing true in what you typed.

it IS interesting how they teach NDLs as the end all be all limit. and rarely go into how to get out of trouble. or better yet explain that if you follow the proper procedures going past NDL is as safe as most other diving...assuming you do it right.

i REGULARLY dive past the NDL on my...albeit CONSERVATIVE...computer. but i also do alot of (cough) unsafe diving.

i always joke with friends i dive with....dive with me...not like me.

things i do regularly:
solo dive
solo dive in 130-200ft
exceed NDL
use high mix nitrox or pure o2 as deco gas

i know how my body reacts, i know how my body consumes air. i've had the **** hit the fan alone in deep water and i kept my cool. i've been REALLY narc'ed...alot.

i've also become very familiar with my gear and how it works. i'm not fumbling to find my depth guage or where to clip it. i know i can read my wrist computer with no mask.

i have a dive mentality of "you are your own buddy...help yourself...don't rely on others"

even the best buddies get separated
not all dive buddies will have the same experience
be your own problem solver, don't be a problem


i have issues with how some things are taught in O/W classes, even in more advanced classes. if i'm out of air the last thing i'm gonna do is give some goofy hand signal! i'm grabbing for a reg...whether it be the one in YOUR mouth..or the one on your hip...i'm getting air. while i understand the need to teach "the principle" of an OAE. they need to describe the reality of it too.

i hear similar things about certain equipment, like those small spare airs. shops will tell you they are useless, and don't carry enough air for a paniced diver. but hell if i'm in the situation where i NEED that spare air...my *** is already heading up. to hell with the safety stop...i'll take a chamber ride rather than run out of air! if all it gives me is 3-4 breaths...that's all i'll need. if i get more...bonus...i'll slow down at the last 30ft.

ok...enough mindless/i'm bored at work/its friday...*****ing carry on