The Sand Bed Debate
- Thread starter OUBrook
- Start date
jpitts101
New member
im sure there are alot of supporters of bare bottom, that can debate their side just as well. i've seen some very nice bare bottom tanks. i just dont think it looks as natural as with sand. wait.............who am i to say what natual looks like, im running 12 t-5's on my 180 with no halides at all (halides-shimmer effect ) . so i guess i cant say what natural looks like either being i wouldnt trade my t-5's for anything!
mskohl
Active member
Charlie,
I would like to hear your experiences and opinions of the BB. What would you consider pros and cons of each?
I have a SSB (~2" in most places) in the tank and 4-6" in the refugium. I like the way it looks and have had positive results - though short-term.
Thanks,
Stephanie
I would like to hear your experiences and opinions of the BB. What would you consider pros and cons of each?
I have a SSB (~2" in most places) in the tank and 4-6" in the refugium. I like the way it looks and have had positive results - though short-term.
Thanks,
Stephanie
captbunzo
Premium Member
To DSB or Not to DSB, for that is the questionรยขรขโยฌรยฆ..
Ah, the complicated issues that arise in the wonderful world of reefkeeping, not the least of these being the inevitable debate: should I use sand, how much, what kind, or not at all!
Well, in the next several paragraphs, I will attempt to express my stance on this somewhat complicated issue. Feel free to read along or not, agree, disagree, etc. As with any topic, I cede up front the right for us each to form and hold our own opinion on the matter. And we should all start by agreeing, when necessary, to disagree.
The Function of Sand in a Reef Tank
A sand bed in a Reef tank serves many purposes.
Part 1 - Environment for Microorganisms
I believe that the more of the natural environment of the reef that we can replicate within our tanks, the healthier and more successful that they will likely be. There are surely always times when this concept breaks down. But for the most part, I believe it serves us well.
Consequently, I believe a sand bed located INSIDE the main display of a reef tank is important for the increase in biodiversity that it will create. Sure, to a certain extent, this can be accomplished as well by a remote sand bed of some sort attached into the same system, perhaps in an attached refugium, sump, or remote deep sand bed (RDSB). However, I really feel that a much larger benefit can be had from at least some form of sand bed existing directly within a tank.
And in this sand bed, I am talking about a variety of microorganisms รยขรขโยฌ"ล from the microscopic such as bacteria, diatoms, etc, to the larger scale such as the various worms (polychaetes) that can be imported either singly, intentionally, or via live rock, etc. I believe that all levels of this can be cultured within a tank and will benefit a tank in a number of ways.
Some of these ways include enriching the diet of the livestock that we build our tanks to keep, both vertebrate (fish, etc) and invertebrate (corals, shrimp, etc). These benefits also include the processing of nutrients better within our tank. Mostly I am talking here about the higher level of microorganisms, including collection and processing of waste food, etc. However, this also starts to include processing of unwanted waste molecules, such as nitrates.
Part 2 รยขรขโยฌ"ล Natural Nitrate Reduction
Now, for the previous topic, a sand bed needs not be particularly deep. Even the shallowest of sand beds (say 1/2 to 1 inch) will provide a place for worms and other critters to live. However, when it comes to truly adequate processing of unwanted molecules, such as nitrates, we start to really benefit from a deeper sand bed, what is often referred to as the infamous Deep Sand Bed (DSB).
But first, letรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs have a little science for a moment.
We are all familiar with the Nitrogen cycle that takes place within our fish tanks. Ammonia is released in our tank in the form of waste from our livestock, uneaten food, etc. That ammonia is turned into nitrites by a certain group of bacteria. That nitrite is then turned into nitrate by another group of bacteria. Those two steps happen extremely efficiently within our tanks, which is good since both ammonia and nitrite are very toxic to our precious livestock.
However, nitrate is a different beast. The bacteria which process nitrate will turn it into harmless free nitrogen. However, these bacteria require low oxygen or oxygen free (anaerobic) environments in order to live. And in our tanks, the saltwater being circulating around by our pumps is highly saturated with oxygen, at least from the perspective of the anaerobic bacteria involved in nitrate processing. Consequently, in our tanks, Natural Nitrate Reduction via these anaerobic bacteria will only take place deep within our live rock, or inside of a sand bed. On a side note, this is partially why live rock is so important in our tanks of today.
Anyways, while live rock does an excellent job of processing some of the nitrate that is produced in our tank, much is left over. Left to be, this nitrate will build up and cause problems with both invertebrate and eventually vertebrate livestock.
Therefore, by using sand beds, in particularly, Deep Sand Beds, we can add to the natural nitrate processing capabilities of our tanks.
Parameters of a Sand Bed (or Deep Sand Bed)
Okay, so we decide to add some sand to our tank. We have decisions to make. In my opinion, the biggest decisions to make include both what size of grain of sand and how much.
Grain Size
Grain size is very important in the concept of what you are hoping to accomplish with a Sand Bed. In relation to Natural Nitrate Reduction, the grain size is simple รยขรขโยฌ"ล the smaller the better. Smaller grain sizes will basically allow less and less oxygen rich water to permeate your sand bed. At the smallest grain sizes, I have read you can even accomplish natural nitrate reduction at 1 inch in depth. At more moderate grain sizes, 2-3-4 inches is going to be necessary. In all cases, the deeper the better, especially with the largest of sand grains sizes. And by the time you are up to crushed coral, etc, I am not sure that you are going to get any natural nitrate reduction.
For more on this, check out this article on Wet Web Media by Anthony Calfo
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
Now, one can compromise somewhere in between. One can use a ratio of larger and smaller grain sizes. In this case, I think the performance of the sand bed in nitrate reduction as related to depth of sand bed is going to closely related to the smallest grain used, as it will likely fill in all the gaps around larger grain sizes. In fact, according to some experts (Shimek), best performance will actually result from a mix of grain sizes. I believe in one of his articles online somewhere, Shimek discusses this in detail.
Sand Bed Depth
I think I have covered this accidentally earlier, but in short, the deeper the better when it comes to sand beds. Deeper sand beds simply provide more volume of area for nitrate reducing bacteria to live and do their thing.
Debates and Options
Deep Sand Beds รยขรขโยฌ"ล the Great Nutrient Sink
I think that nutrient issues within deep sand beds are more complicated then they are often made to be. Often, naysayers to Deep Sand Beds will say that DSB will ALWAYS become loaded with nutrients over time. Consequently, often those who are often strongest opponents to DSB will have had one in the past that they have blamed for significant tank problems, a tank crash, etc.
What do I have to say about that? Well, I think there are often other problems involved that cause these tank crashes.
I think the number one problem people have is in not having enough or the right kind of water flow. Water flow on a reef is enormous. Even the calmest sections of the reef can involve as much flow as our most vigorously churning reef tanks. The issue is simply that we cannot provide the same KIND of flow as is provided on a reef. So the best we can do is to aim for something similar or approximately correct.
And the way to do this is to provide large amounts of diffuse water flow.
Even the lowest flow of corals will do relatively well when the flow provided in a tank is diffuse and chaotic, not laminar and direct. In short, you want to not just move small jets of water around your tank, but rather you want to move ALL of the water around your tank. And that what the rage is about all of these stream style powerheads (Tunze & SEIO). They not only provide a LOT of flow, but they create gently, rolling flow รยขรขโยฌ"ล flow that doesnรยขรขโยฌรขโยขt spray out like a jet or fire hose, but more like, well, like a stream.
I think this is often what is missed when folks end up with long term DSB problems. But thatรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs just my relatively unsubstantiated opinion on the matter.
Remote Deep Sand Beds
I consider Remote Deep Sand Beds (RDSB) to be the best of both worlds. In short, a RDSB is a big pile of sand plumbed into your tank system with water flowing quickly over the top. The large pile of sand provides a huge amount of volume in which natural nitrate reduction can occur. And the fast flow of water helps to avoid solids from settling out.
The nice thing is that you can EASILY add such a beast to a tank, given the space. I set one up for my 55g tank in Ardmore by plumbing a 5g water cube (filled with sand) into my tank via a Maxijet powerhead in my refugium. Water pumps from the refugium into the top of the 5g cube, and then drains out a whole in the size sealed with a uniseal and plumbed together with some PVC. That drains back into the same refugium chamber. And if at some point I became dissatisfied with it, all I have to do is turn it off and remove it, as if it were a power filter hanging on the back of the tank or a protein skimmer sitting in the sump. Nice and easy.
And the result? Well, my tank has run with very low nitrates despite not having a protein skimmer and being fed quite heavily. I am also a big slacker when it comes to doing regular water changes.
If you are truly interested in the concept of a RDSB, check out this thread in Anthony Calfoรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs forum over on Marine Depot.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic20039-13-1.aspx
It has a lot more information, including pictures and diagrams, etc. For instance, Calfo recommends trashcans full of sand as RDSB for larger tanks. I think itรยขรขโยฌรขโยขd absolutely be worth the effort. I also think itรยขรขโยฌรขโยขd be a perfect place to use some of that Pavestone Pulverized Limestone.
Sand Sifting Critters, etc.
There is always the great debate as to whether it is better or not to employ sand sifting creatures such as gobies, sand sifting stars, cucumbers, etc. It is often argued that these critters will obliterate the population of micro fauna in a sand bed. Well, I donรยขรขโยฌรขโยขt really think my experiences have shown that to be true. In my 55g tank, I have both a Rainford Goby and a larger sand-sifting (watchman) gobyรยขรขโยฌรยฆ. And I STILL have countless spaghetti worms, etc, living (visibly) in my sand.
Concerning disturbing the layers of natural nitrate reduction within a sand bed, I think that depends much on what sort of critter you are talking about. If something drastically stirs the sand bed from top to bottom on a regular basis, then yes, Iรยขรขโยฌรขโยขd say that you have an issue there. But if, like my gobies, they only really mess with the top layer, then I donรยขรขโยฌรขโยขt see as much of a problem.
My Thoughts on Bare Bottom Tanks
I hate to be course, but in all honesty, I have just plain found the Bare Bottom look to be generally unattractive. I think this really has something to do with looking at a bare piece of glass on the bottom of the tank. I also love sand and beaches and am probably biased on account of that.
Perhaps one could get a taller tank (30 inches) and build the front of a stand up so that the bottom 6 inches were not visible, maybe with a 6 inch panel that would fold down for maintenance, etc. That might provide the illusion of looking at more of an open reef wall, sort of the illusion of infinite depth on the bottom of a tank. Maybe that could be enhanced even further by placing a matte black piece of plastic or something on the bottom of the tank as well.
Whatever the case, I also think a BB tank, as I have described above, misses out on the benefit of both NNR and microfauna rounding out the ecosystem. But thatรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs just my opinion.
I also just always end up thinking that those who try Barebottom tanks are going that route as it is the SIMPLE route to avoid nutrient problems in a tank. I think that a carefully designed system with a sand bed can easily avoid problems. However, again, that's just my (probably ill-formed) opinion...
Conclusion
And thatรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs it the majority of my opinions on the matter. I am sure this is more then anyone wanted, but thatรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs ok.
Also let me reiterate the need to agree to disagree on some points and acknowledge that everyone must go their own way on these things.
Ah, the complicated issues that arise in the wonderful world of reefkeeping, not the least of these being the inevitable debate: should I use sand, how much, what kind, or not at all!
Well, in the next several paragraphs, I will attempt to express my stance on this somewhat complicated issue. Feel free to read along or not, agree, disagree, etc. As with any topic, I cede up front the right for us each to form and hold our own opinion on the matter. And we should all start by agreeing, when necessary, to disagree.
The Function of Sand in a Reef Tank
A sand bed in a Reef tank serves many purposes.
Part 1 - Environment for Microorganisms
I believe that the more of the natural environment of the reef that we can replicate within our tanks, the healthier and more successful that they will likely be. There are surely always times when this concept breaks down. But for the most part, I believe it serves us well.
Consequently, I believe a sand bed located INSIDE the main display of a reef tank is important for the increase in biodiversity that it will create. Sure, to a certain extent, this can be accomplished as well by a remote sand bed of some sort attached into the same system, perhaps in an attached refugium, sump, or remote deep sand bed (RDSB). However, I really feel that a much larger benefit can be had from at least some form of sand bed existing directly within a tank.
And in this sand bed, I am talking about a variety of microorganisms รยขรขโยฌ"ล from the microscopic such as bacteria, diatoms, etc, to the larger scale such as the various worms (polychaetes) that can be imported either singly, intentionally, or via live rock, etc. I believe that all levels of this can be cultured within a tank and will benefit a tank in a number of ways.
Some of these ways include enriching the diet of the livestock that we build our tanks to keep, both vertebrate (fish, etc) and invertebrate (corals, shrimp, etc). These benefits also include the processing of nutrients better within our tank. Mostly I am talking here about the higher level of microorganisms, including collection and processing of waste food, etc. However, this also starts to include processing of unwanted waste molecules, such as nitrates.
Part 2 รยขรขโยฌ"ล Natural Nitrate Reduction
Now, for the previous topic, a sand bed needs not be particularly deep. Even the shallowest of sand beds (say 1/2 to 1 inch) will provide a place for worms and other critters to live. However, when it comes to truly adequate processing of unwanted molecules, such as nitrates, we start to really benefit from a deeper sand bed, what is often referred to as the infamous Deep Sand Bed (DSB).
But first, letรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs have a little science for a moment.
We are all familiar with the Nitrogen cycle that takes place within our fish tanks. Ammonia is released in our tank in the form of waste from our livestock, uneaten food, etc. That ammonia is turned into nitrites by a certain group of bacteria. That nitrite is then turned into nitrate by another group of bacteria. Those two steps happen extremely efficiently within our tanks, which is good since both ammonia and nitrite are very toxic to our precious livestock.
However, nitrate is a different beast. The bacteria which process nitrate will turn it into harmless free nitrogen. However, these bacteria require low oxygen or oxygen free (anaerobic) environments in order to live. And in our tanks, the saltwater being circulating around by our pumps is highly saturated with oxygen, at least from the perspective of the anaerobic bacteria involved in nitrate processing. Consequently, in our tanks, Natural Nitrate Reduction via these anaerobic bacteria will only take place deep within our live rock, or inside of a sand bed. On a side note, this is partially why live rock is so important in our tanks of today.
Anyways, while live rock does an excellent job of processing some of the nitrate that is produced in our tank, much is left over. Left to be, this nitrate will build up and cause problems with both invertebrate and eventually vertebrate livestock.
Therefore, by using sand beds, in particularly, Deep Sand Beds, we can add to the natural nitrate processing capabilities of our tanks.
Parameters of a Sand Bed (or Deep Sand Bed)
Okay, so we decide to add some sand to our tank. We have decisions to make. In my opinion, the biggest decisions to make include both what size of grain of sand and how much.
Grain Size
Grain size is very important in the concept of what you are hoping to accomplish with a Sand Bed. In relation to Natural Nitrate Reduction, the grain size is simple รยขรขโยฌ"ล the smaller the better. Smaller grain sizes will basically allow less and less oxygen rich water to permeate your sand bed. At the smallest grain sizes, I have read you can even accomplish natural nitrate reduction at 1 inch in depth. At more moderate grain sizes, 2-3-4 inches is going to be necessary. In all cases, the deeper the better, especially with the largest of sand grains sizes. And by the time you are up to crushed coral, etc, I am not sure that you are going to get any natural nitrate reduction.
For more on this, check out this article on Wet Web Media by Anthony Calfo
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
Now, one can compromise somewhere in between. One can use a ratio of larger and smaller grain sizes. In this case, I think the performance of the sand bed in nitrate reduction as related to depth of sand bed is going to closely related to the smallest grain used, as it will likely fill in all the gaps around larger grain sizes. In fact, according to some experts (Shimek), best performance will actually result from a mix of grain sizes. I believe in one of his articles online somewhere, Shimek discusses this in detail.
Sand Bed Depth
I think I have covered this accidentally earlier, but in short, the deeper the better when it comes to sand beds. Deeper sand beds simply provide more volume of area for nitrate reducing bacteria to live and do their thing.
Debates and Options
Deep Sand Beds รยขรขโยฌ"ล the Great Nutrient Sink
I think that nutrient issues within deep sand beds are more complicated then they are often made to be. Often, naysayers to Deep Sand Beds will say that DSB will ALWAYS become loaded with nutrients over time. Consequently, often those who are often strongest opponents to DSB will have had one in the past that they have blamed for significant tank problems, a tank crash, etc.
What do I have to say about that? Well, I think there are often other problems involved that cause these tank crashes.
I think the number one problem people have is in not having enough or the right kind of water flow. Water flow on a reef is enormous. Even the calmest sections of the reef can involve as much flow as our most vigorously churning reef tanks. The issue is simply that we cannot provide the same KIND of flow as is provided on a reef. So the best we can do is to aim for something similar or approximately correct.
And the way to do this is to provide large amounts of diffuse water flow.
Even the lowest flow of corals will do relatively well when the flow provided in a tank is diffuse and chaotic, not laminar and direct. In short, you want to not just move small jets of water around your tank, but rather you want to move ALL of the water around your tank. And that what the rage is about all of these stream style powerheads (Tunze & SEIO). They not only provide a LOT of flow, but they create gently, rolling flow รยขรขโยฌ"ล flow that doesnรยขรขโยฌรขโยขt spray out like a jet or fire hose, but more like, well, like a stream.
I think this is often what is missed when folks end up with long term DSB problems. But thatรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs just my relatively unsubstantiated opinion on the matter.
Remote Deep Sand Beds
I consider Remote Deep Sand Beds (RDSB) to be the best of both worlds. In short, a RDSB is a big pile of sand plumbed into your tank system with water flowing quickly over the top. The large pile of sand provides a huge amount of volume in which natural nitrate reduction can occur. And the fast flow of water helps to avoid solids from settling out.
The nice thing is that you can EASILY add such a beast to a tank, given the space. I set one up for my 55g tank in Ardmore by plumbing a 5g water cube (filled with sand) into my tank via a Maxijet powerhead in my refugium. Water pumps from the refugium into the top of the 5g cube, and then drains out a whole in the size sealed with a uniseal and plumbed together with some PVC. That drains back into the same refugium chamber. And if at some point I became dissatisfied with it, all I have to do is turn it off and remove it, as if it were a power filter hanging on the back of the tank or a protein skimmer sitting in the sump. Nice and easy.
And the result? Well, my tank has run with very low nitrates despite not having a protein skimmer and being fed quite heavily. I am also a big slacker when it comes to doing regular water changes.
If you are truly interested in the concept of a RDSB, check out this thread in Anthony Calfoรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs forum over on Marine Depot.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic20039-13-1.aspx
It has a lot more information, including pictures and diagrams, etc. For instance, Calfo recommends trashcans full of sand as RDSB for larger tanks. I think itรยขรขโยฌรขโยขd absolutely be worth the effort. I also think itรยขรขโยฌรขโยขd be a perfect place to use some of that Pavestone Pulverized Limestone.
Sand Sifting Critters, etc.
There is always the great debate as to whether it is better or not to employ sand sifting creatures such as gobies, sand sifting stars, cucumbers, etc. It is often argued that these critters will obliterate the population of micro fauna in a sand bed. Well, I donรยขรขโยฌรขโยขt really think my experiences have shown that to be true. In my 55g tank, I have both a Rainford Goby and a larger sand-sifting (watchman) gobyรยขรขโยฌรยฆ. And I STILL have countless spaghetti worms, etc, living (visibly) in my sand.
Concerning disturbing the layers of natural nitrate reduction within a sand bed, I think that depends much on what sort of critter you are talking about. If something drastically stirs the sand bed from top to bottom on a regular basis, then yes, Iรยขรขโยฌรขโยขd say that you have an issue there. But if, like my gobies, they only really mess with the top layer, then I donรยขรขโยฌรขโยขt see as much of a problem.
My Thoughts on Bare Bottom Tanks
I hate to be course, but in all honesty, I have just plain found the Bare Bottom look to be generally unattractive. I think this really has something to do with looking at a bare piece of glass on the bottom of the tank. I also love sand and beaches and am probably biased on account of that.
Perhaps one could get a taller tank (30 inches) and build the front of a stand up so that the bottom 6 inches were not visible, maybe with a 6 inch panel that would fold down for maintenance, etc. That might provide the illusion of looking at more of an open reef wall, sort of the illusion of infinite depth on the bottom of a tank. Maybe that could be enhanced even further by placing a matte black piece of plastic or something on the bottom of the tank as well.
Whatever the case, I also think a BB tank, as I have described above, misses out on the benefit of both NNR and microfauna rounding out the ecosystem. But thatรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs just my opinion.
I also just always end up thinking that those who try Barebottom tanks are going that route as it is the SIMPLE route to avoid nutrient problems in a tank. I think that a carefully designed system with a sand bed can easily avoid problems. However, again, that's just my (probably ill-formed) opinion...
Conclusion
And thatรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs it the majority of my opinions on the matter. I am sure this is more then anyone wanted, but thatรยขรขโยฌรขโยขs ok.
Also let me reiterate the need to agree to disagree on some points and acknowledge that everyone must go their own way on these things.
djc1026
New member
I run a shallow sand bed of 2-3 inches, it's a mix of crushed coral and Carib Sea "live sand" (which I now believe isn't all it's cracked up to be, but I was a newbee).
Now my opinions about SBs. I believe there are two main things to consider, function and asthetics. These are not necessarily interdependent. Paul T. did a fantastic job describing the function of sand beds, particularly DSB. If one chooses a DSB, they should have an understanding of how it works and the basic why, it should not be chosen specifically for aesthetics, in my opinion. Without knowing some of what can happen with major disruption of the deeper portions, you could have problems.
In fact having an understanding of "how it works and the basic why" is sort of my mantra in this hobby. I do many things unconventionally, but I have a rationale behind it that I believe to be true, or at least true so far until proven otherwise. Yes, I like to push the envelope or at least give it a nudge.
If one has done any reading at all on saltwater aquarium keeping, they have undoubtedly read there are as many ways to keep an aquarium as Carter has liver pills. What works for one person does not necessarily work for others, too many unknown variables in each individual tank. For example there are still people that run a plenum. This was a pioneering evolution in reefkeeping, but not many people run their tanks that way anymore. Plenums and DSB were found to be extremely beneficial in the denitrification process. It's probably only been in the last 10-15 years, maybe less, that the keeping of corals for any considerable length of time in the home aquarium has been accomplished. For years, people couldn't keep coral alive in all but the most sophisticated systems, save a few.
So in summary, all forms of a sand bed or no sand bed will work in my opinion as long as you know and understand the issues you have to deal with or compensate for. I chose the depth and composition of my SB primarily for asthetics and micro fauna support, not filtration; thus I compensate for filtration in other areas.
And that's my $.02
Dave
Now my opinions about SBs. I believe there are two main things to consider, function and asthetics. These are not necessarily interdependent. Paul T. did a fantastic job describing the function of sand beds, particularly DSB. If one chooses a DSB, they should have an understanding of how it works and the basic why, it should not be chosen specifically for aesthetics, in my opinion. Without knowing some of what can happen with major disruption of the deeper portions, you could have problems.
In fact having an understanding of "how it works and the basic why" is sort of my mantra in this hobby. I do many things unconventionally, but I have a rationale behind it that I believe to be true, or at least true so far until proven otherwise. Yes, I like to push the envelope or at least give it a nudge
. If one has done any reading at all on saltwater aquarium keeping, they have undoubtedly read there are as many ways to keep an aquarium as Carter has liver pills. What works for one person does not necessarily work for others, too many unknown variables in each individual tank. For example there are still people that run a plenum. This was a pioneering evolution in reefkeeping, but not many people run their tanks that way anymore. Plenums and DSB were found to be extremely beneficial in the denitrification process. It's probably only been in the last 10-15 years, maybe less, that the keeping of corals for any considerable length of time in the home aquarium has been accomplished. For years, people couldn't keep coral alive in all but the most sophisticated systems, save a few.
So in summary, all forms of a sand bed or no sand bed will work in my opinion as long as you know and understand the issues you have to deal with or compensate for. I chose the depth and composition of my SB primarily for asthetics and micro fauna support, not filtration; thus I compensate for filtration in other areas.
And that's my $.02
Dave
jpitts101
New member
why do you think that the live sand that you bought did you no good? many people may disagree with me but i think its very important to seed a sand bed with live sand even if you have live rock. you get so many good critters that you cant see out of the live sand, sure your sand will become live with time of haveing live rock but your putting lots of microscopic critters in your tank that you will never see but your corals, fish, and other tank mates will benifit for a long while. i've read threads about people saying that you dont have to have live sand in your aquarium being your live rock will make it live in time. this is true but will you get everything in your live rock that you will in your live sand? thats one reason i love live rock from all over not just fiji. i love all the stuff i dont see that seeds my tank and makes my tank happy. just my 1 cent.
djc1026
New member
It was the packaged "live sand" and I'm just a bit skeptical as to the marketing of it. They say it has a shelf life of 12 months in an enclosed bag, with no addition of anything. I absolutely agree with seeding, in fact I used all live sand from an established system in my SH tank, and it is far more "live" than my 75 reef, and I only have about 25 lbs of LR in the SH tank. I was merely commenting on the bag of "live sand" you can buy off the shelf and my personal opinion about that.
Dave
Dave
jpitts101
New member
ohh and by the way if you had fish and coral in your tank right after you added you live sand your right it probally was pointless. you have to set a live sand bed up, not just add it. i added 160 Lbs of sand, then 1 bag of fiji pink live sand. im letting the live and multiply without any preditors eating on it.
captbunzo
Premium Member
Ah, the fabled live bags of sand.... I have heard most of the experts discuss the stuff you can get in bags that is sold as live sand. And the ONLY benefit I truly believe you to get from them is the lack of a dust storm.
Scientifically, there is no way that a SEALED bag of sand if going to harbor much life for anything except the most brief length of time. Basically, it's bunk. Pure bunk. Unadulterated bunk...
Now, when I first started the hobby, I bought some bags of the stuff and was a big proponent of it for a while. Since then I have learned better.
Also, the only thing the "live sand in a bag" manufacturers claim their bags of sand to contain is live bacteria. And according to the marine biologist I have heard discuss the matter, that sort of bacteria will be equally populated into your sand bed within just a few weeks of setting up a tank, if not less.
And since we are talking only bacteria here, predation means little to the life and, consequently, time isn't going to save anything with that sort of live sand.
Now, if we want to REALLY jump in there and order some live sand as in LIVE SAND fresh from the ocean, then heck yeah, that's a great thing. I mean, no other way are you guaranteed to get the most diverse range of micro fauna. The next best thing (and maybe even better since most of us can afford this) is to buy a cup of sand out of a tank in our LFS, or to beg some similar cups of sand from fellow reefers with established sand beds....
As for predation on new sand beds, corals make absolutely no difference. And I'd say fish are a problem ONLY if they are the sort to actively prey upon sand bed critters (such as sand sifting gobies).
No offense, JD, I just don't buy the live sand in a bag thing anymore.
Scientifically, there is no way that a SEALED bag of sand if going to harbor much life for anything except the most brief length of time. Basically, it's bunk. Pure bunk. Unadulterated bunk...
Now, when I first started the hobby, I bought some bags of the stuff and was a big proponent of it for a while. Since then I have learned better.
Also, the only thing the "live sand in a bag" manufacturers claim their bags of sand to contain is live bacteria. And according to the marine biologist I have heard discuss the matter, that sort of bacteria will be equally populated into your sand bed within just a few weeks of setting up a tank, if not less.
And since we are talking only bacteria here, predation means little to the life and, consequently, time isn't going to save anything with that sort of live sand.
Now, if we want to REALLY jump in there and order some live sand as in LIVE SAND fresh from the ocean, then heck yeah, that's a great thing. I mean, no other way are you guaranteed to get the most diverse range of micro fauna. The next best thing (and maybe even better since most of us can afford this) is to buy a cup of sand out of a tank in our LFS, or to beg some similar cups of sand from fellow reefers with established sand beds....
As for predation on new sand beds, corals make absolutely no difference. And I'd say fish are a problem ONLY if they are the sort to actively prey upon sand bed critters (such as sand sifting gobies).
No offense, JD, I just don't buy the live sand in a bag thing anymore.
jpitts101
New member
i guess we all have our own oppinion on this even if we agree. the source i got it from was Ron shimek's website on how to construct a living dsb. i though it was very usefull. i dont think its just bacteria that is in the bag, but in not entirely sure there is life in it. i have yet to find an article or thread that says their is proof that you dont get any life in the bag's. i do know that my quarenteen tank has alot more life than my 105. my 105 was seeded with live rock and my quarenteen was seeded with live sand being i needed the bacteria in it right away to get fish in. thats another one thats up in the air. i think it is benificial, i dont think you need to have your whole sand bed live sand but i do think it is good to be seeded with it. just my thought. i may be, and probally are wrong but i do see the difference in 2 of the tanks i have. thats why im settting the 180 up like i did the quarenteen.
I have a shallow sandbed now, well, crushed coral. I do my best to vac it during water changes so no real big deal. It was a deep bed, but I started removing gobs of it when I could not get the phosphates to go away.
For the 300, I've been debating on a faux bed. Basically sand mixed with epoxy to "look" like a sandbed. I would have a remote in a barrel and a deep bed in the sump. This would be a no sandstorm tank so I could have all sorts of flow. The problem is sand sifting critters would be a little upset and it is pretty much permanent. Oh yes, I don't really like the idea of corallene growing on the "sandbed".
I am still pondering either a shallow or deep, course or fine.... Charlies tank turned me off of bare bottom tanks. decisions decisions.
For the 300, I've been debating on a faux bed. Basically sand mixed with epoxy to "look" like a sandbed. I would have a remote in a barrel and a deep bed in the sump. This would be a no sandstorm tank so I could have all sorts of flow. The problem is sand sifting critters would be a little upset and it is pretty much permanent. Oh yes, I don't really like the idea of corallene growing on the "sandbed".
I am still pondering either a shallow or deep, course or fine.... Charlies tank turned me off of bare bottom tanks. decisions decisions.
I've had tanks with crushed coral, a 4"-6" sandbed and now a 1"-1.5" sandbed. Of all the tanks I like the 1.5" the best. It gives me a mix of looks, a place for burrowers and doesn't grow as much of the ugly stuff as the deep bed did. I've never had enough room to do a remote DSB.
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