Av8bluewater
New member
Are those your tubes in Krystovs' and lasers tank?
The T5 Q&a Thread - split
- Thread starter eagle9252
- Start date
MidwesternTexan
Average Joe
While trhis looks great, I"m not into buying and replacing bulbs- my budget can't go there.
I"ll take some reading/time on my LED's and see what happens.
I also use full spectrum/dimmable- non prgrammable LED's which are very inexspensive- yet are giving me and others great results.
I like your coparison of the T5's. I still get higher par with my LED's, and not at 100%.
But I know it's not only about PAR, etc.
I"ll take some reading/time on my LED's and see what happens.
I also use full spectrum/dimmable- non prgrammable LED's which are very inexspensive- yet are giving me and others great results.
I like your coparison of the T5's. I still get higher par with my LED's, and not at 100%.
But I know it's not only about PAR, etc.
Av8bluewater
New member
Is that you Todd? hehe
You got that right. I'm not really a person obessed with high PAR. As long as it's somewhat acceptable levels. .. what I'm looking for is spectrum, steady PAR and even coverage.
For me that means higher fixture with new bulbs and lower throughout the bulbs life cycle.
I salute you LED users. Maybe at some point I'll build a Kessil/T5 canopy.
As far as cost though... it's really negligible. 8 bulbs once a year is practically nothing in this hobby. Especially if you compare what it would cost me to cover my tank with the LEDs I would feel comfortable with.
MidwesternTexan
Average Joe
Is that you Todd? hehe
You got that right. I'm not really a person obessed with high PAR. As long as it's somewhat acceptable levels. .. what I'm looking for is spectrum, steady PAR and even coverage.
For me that means higher fixture with new bulbs and lower throughout the bulbs life cycle.
I salute you LED users. Maybe at some point I'll build a Kessil/T5 canopy.
As far as cost though... it's really negligible. 8 bulbs once a year is practically nothing in this hobby. Especially if you compare what it would cost me to cover my tank with the LEDs I would feel comfortable with.
Yes sir, it's me- that crashed your (invited though) party last summer.
YOur tank is looking great.
IMHO- getting 4 of the chinese pendants I'm now using- full spectrum dimmable- would easily cover your tank, both width and depth- even with the 90 degree lenses vs the 120 degree.
4 of them would be right at ~$400 shipped- for all 4, not each.
I'm pretty sure the PAR really lasts on these too.
I'll have to start a PAR comparison of the same depth, same % dimming, etc.
Reef on my friend,
Todd
Av8bluewater
New member
Thanks man. I may try one out. Thinking about converting my fuge to frag rack.
E Rosewater
New member
I'm planning on doing a T5 retrofit, probably the LET miro4 kit. I have a 200g 72x24x27, LPS dominated with some softies. Should
I go 8 x 80, or 6 x 80? I want to make sure I have enough light without cooking my LPS.
I go 8 x 80, or 6 x 80? I want to make sure I have enough light without cooking my LPS.
Pacific Sun RD
Przemek Cybulski
I was asked by some Customers why I not replied here(in this thread) so I want clarify it. I have replied to all your questions in dedicated thread - I would not do offtopic discuss(about PacificSun tubes only) here.I was going to create a separate thread about my experience on Pacific Sun tubes, but since you responded to my post, I can provide it in this thread, which is as below:
I am surprised as much as you are. I had so much expectation from your tubes that I purchased 14 of them (2 X ShallowWater, 6 X Crystal Blue, 6 X Spectra +) when they were on a 20% offer last summer. This equates to more than two years supply.
I installed 3 X Crystal Blue and 3 X Spectra + between 7th August 2014 and 24th August 2014. I used an ATI Sunpower unit (non-dimmable). I installed the tubes one at a time in intervals to avoid light shock to my corals. Initially, the light unit was 12 cm above the brace bar. I normally aim at ~250 µmol m-2 s-1 at a specific point, which is where my Montipora setosa is situated (Figure 1). This coral is approximately 13" (33 cm) below the aforementioned brace bar. Once all the Pacific Sun tubes were in place, I used them at least 100 hours before I took a PAR measurement with my Apogee sensor. I run my ATI unit's fans at 9V to ensure that the tubes are exposed to ~35C at the vents of the unit. I installed the tubes in such a way that the labelled end of the tubes were directly under these vents (Figure 2) to ensure that the tubes would be properly cooled during operation. For more details refer to my tank thread. I ran the light unit several hours to ensure that they reached their peak operating temperature and then adjusted the height of the unit so that I get ~250 µmol m-2 s-1. What happened afterwards was that in a space of two months I had to lower my light unit repeatedly to maintain the same PAR level. Here is the quantitative data I gathered while running the Pacific Sun tubes:
24/08/2014 the light unit was 12 cm above the brace bar;
09/09/2014 the light unit was 11.3 cm above the brace bar;
23/09/2014 the light unit was 10.5 cm above the brace bar;
04/10/2014 the light unit was 10 cm above the brace bar;
09/10/2014 the light unit was 9 cm above the brace bar.
Here is comparative data: Before using Pacific Sun tubes, I used ATI tubes (3 X ATI Blue + and 3 X Coral +). The orientation of the ATI tubes was exactly the same as the PS tubes (i.e. front ATI blue +/PS Crystal Blue, ATI Coral +/PS Spectra +, ATI blue +/PS Crystal Blue, ATI Coral +/PS Spectra +, ATI blue +/PS Crystal Blue, ATI Coral +/PS Spectra + back)
I installed the ATI tubes on 20/10/2013 (using the same incremental process). I repositioned my light unit ~9cm above the same brace bar on 13/04/2013 to get ~ 250 µmol m-2 s-1 reading (nearly six months after the first PAR reading). Notice that I used the "~" symbol, because ATI and Pacific Sun tubes are not identical though they are quite comparable. I have further data about the interim results, but I have not included them here as they would not demonstrate anything beyond that already demonstrated.
I am not going to pretend that my experiments are scientific. I would welcome constructive criticism as it would give me a learning opportunity. Nevertheless, I believe that they are systematic enough to enable me to make informed judgements.
On a positive note I really liked the combination of Spectra + and Crystal blue together. Spectra + is a little brighter compared to Coral + perhaps due to a bit more yellow peak in it. Similarly, I liked Crystal Blue even more because my corals that have fluorescent pigments fluoresced better under it compared to ATI blue + as you explained in this thread. Moreover, the UK reseller (CCUK) was exceptionally helpful during the purchasing process. His credit card machine did not work when I collected the tubes from his premises. He let me take the tubes without paying for them. I then paid in full approximately fourteen days later (if I remember correctly) via paypal and only after I wrote to him that I wanted to pay. He never chased for payment. I do not think one can get better customer service than this.
On a negative note, the same reseller was completely silent, when I raised my concern over the longevity of the PS tubes.
Consequently, I decided to switch back to ATI tubes. They cost significantly more, but they last significantly longer too.
In my review, I have stated the facts and endeavoured to be balanced. Thanks for reading it.
Figure 1: My reef Tank
Figure 2: Orientation of my T5 Tubes
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23231641#post23231641
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
6 will be fine. You could go 8 and run a couple actinics but I'd just buy a couple LED strips instead to get that cool blue LED pop.
E Rosewater
New member
Thanks for the reply. After measuring the canopy I realized that I could only get 6 (maybe 7) in there. So I went with a 6 x 80 retro fit and installed it yesterday, no more LEDs. Of course UPS only delivered 2 of the 3 boxes I had ordered from BRS, so I didn't get two of my bulbs. But it looks good so far. I went with ATI bulbs, from front to back it was Blue +, Coral +, Purple +, Blue + Coral +, Blue +. The Coral + bulbs are the ones that didn't arrive.
My wife likes the tanks with just the Blue + and Purple +, but I think I'll be happier with the whiter look from the Coral + being added in.
Of course this means I'll have to get the canopy off the tank another time which is always fun.
jgraz
New member
Need opinions.
I plan on switching back from LED to T5. My system is a standard 180G 72"x 24"x 24", mixed reef but heavy on the SPS side. My intention is to go with a 8x80w 60" ATI fixture. Should I have any concern about the extra space on the sides of the tank? I figure I'll have roughly 6-7" on either side that will not be directly under light. My concern lies mainly with appearance as I can always use lower light corals if I need to. I just don't want to be looking at shadows.
I plan on switching back from LED to T5. My system is a standard 180G 72"x 24"x 24", mixed reef but heavy on the SPS side. My intention is to go with a 8x80w 60" ATI fixture. Should I have any concern about the extra space on the sides of the tank? I figure I'll have roughly 6-7" on either side that will not be directly under light. My concern lies mainly with appearance as I can always use lower light corals if I need to. I just don't want to be looking at shadows.
Av8bluewater
New member
I have 215 72" X 24" H 30" W . 8X80W and don't notice any shadows at all. Not an issue.
Dapg8gt
New member
Visually you won't notice it but as you thought par wise these fixtures do drop intensity on the ends.
I ran a 36" fixture on a 48" tank and it covered it fine to the eye. Colonies growing out into that area and overcrowding on my part lead the the new fixture in my situation. It really wasn't that bad but the apogee convinced me to get the bigger fixture =)
Pacific Sun RD
Przemek Cybulski
Yes, Krzydztof use our tubes since more than half a year.
Laser tank?.. Lunar right?
jgraz
New member
I just actually saw the post you has a few back with the par reading. Nice job there. That really puts to bed a lot of doubts I was having of going with the 60" fixture.
I was going to create a separate thread about my experience on Pacific Sun tubes, but since you responded to my post, I can provide it in this thread, which is as below:
I am surprised as much as you are. I had so much expectation from your tubes that I purchased 14 of them (2 X ShallowWater, 6 X Crystal Blue, 6 X Spectra +) when they were on a 20% offer last summer. This equates to more than two years supply.
I installed 3 X Crystal Blue and 3 X Spectra + between 7th August 2014 and 24th August 2014. I used an ATI Sunpower unit (non-dimmable). I installed the tubes one at a time in intervals to avoid light shock to my corals. Initially, the light unit was 12 cm above the brace bar. I normally aim at ~250 µmol m-2 s-1 at a specific point, which is where my Montipora setosa is situated (Figure 1). This coral is approximately 13" (33 cm) below the aforementioned brace bar. Once all the Pacific Sun tubes were in place, I used them at least 100 hours before I took a PAR measurement with my Apogee sensor. I run my ATI unit's fans at 9V to ensure that the tubes are exposed to ~35C at the vents of the unit. I installed the tubes in such a way that the labelled end of the tubes were directly under these vents (Figure 2) to ensure that the tubes would be properly cooled during operation. For more details refer to my tank thread. I ran the light unit several hours to ensure that they reached their peak operating temperature and then adjusted the height of the unit so that I get ~250 µmol m-2 s-1. What happened afterwards was that in a space of two months I had to lower my light unit repeatedly to maintain the same PAR level. Here is the quantitative data I gathered while running the Pacific Sun tubes:
24/08/2014 the light unit was 12 cm above the brace bar;
09/09/2014 the light unit was 11.3 cm above the brace bar;
23/09/2014 the light unit was 10.5 cm above the brace bar;
04/10/2014 the light unit was 10 cm above the brace bar;
09/10/2014 the light unit was 9 cm above the brace bar.
Here is comparative data: Before using Pacific Sun tubes, I used ATI tubes (3 X ATI Blue + and 3 X Coral +). The orientation of the ATI tubes was exactly the same as the PS tubes (i.e. front ATI blue +/PS Crystal Blue, ATI Coral +/PS Spectra +, ATI blue +/PS Crystal Blue, ATI Coral +/PS Spectra +, ATI blue +/PS Crystal Blue, ATI Coral +/PS Spectra + back)
I installed the ATI tubes on 20/10/2013 (using the same incremental process). I repositioned my light unit ~9cm above the same brace bar on 13/04/2013 to get ~ 250 µmol m-2 s-1 reading (nearly six months after the first PAR reading). Notice that I used the "~" symbol, because ATI and Pacific Sun tubes are not identical though they are quite comparable. I have further data about the interim results, but I have not included them here as they would not demonstrate anything beyond that already demonstrated.
I am not going to pretend that my experiments are scientific. I would welcome constructive criticism as it would give me a learning opportunity. Nevertheless, I believe that they are systematic enough to enable me to make informed judgements.
On a positive note I really liked the combination of Spectra + and Crystal blue together. Spectra + is a little brighter compared to Coral + perhaps due to a bit more yellow peak in it. Similarly, I liked Crystal Blue even more because my corals that have fluorescent pigments fluoresced better under it compared to ATI blue + as you explained in this thread. Moreover, the UK reseller (CCUK) was exceptionally helpful during the purchasing process. His credit card machine did not work when I collected the tubes from his premises. He let me take the tubes without paying for them. I then paid in full approximately fourteen days later (if I remember correctly) via paypal and only after I wrote to him that I wanted to pay. He never chased for payment. I do not think one can get better customer service than this.
On a negative note, the same reseller was completely silent, when I raised my concern over the longevity of the PS tubes.
Consequently, I decided to switch back to ATI tubes. They cost significantly more, but they last significantly longer too.
In my review, I have stated the facts and endeavoured to be balanced. Thanks for reading it.
Figure 1: My reef Tank
Figure 2: Orientation of my T5 Tubes
Out of curiousity as I have no vested interest in any T5 tubes, yet (thinking of trying them out in my next build).
Why did you only give the PacSuns 2 months? Maybe they burn into a sweet spot the first couple of months then stabilize. How do you know if you only gave them 2 months?
Also, how do you know they don't outlast ATI's as your "test" is seriously flawed? PacSun tested for 2 months might have found a steady state PAR reading. ATI tested longterm shows only anecdotal evidence for better performance. Your comparisons are no where near the same and you seem like you are jumping to conclusions.
A better test would be long term, say 6-9 months for a T5 tube to see how they hold up. Measure both PAR for the ATI and PacSun at the same time interval used for the the same amount of runtime.
I only ask these questions as trying to learn so don't take me the wrong way. I am curious longterm on these tubes as proof of a successful reef keeper such as Krystov (lunars reef).
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
I'm not one that did the test but feel I can answer to some degree.
I've tested a lot of tubes over my years and never once seen a tube level out and hold PAR steady for a lengthened time. They all decrease at a steady pace as long as proper ballast and cooling is employed.
To see such a large drop in 2 months is concerning. Bulbs take about 50 hours to burn in IME. That's less than a week for most.
I don't follow Lunar's tank enough to know this but I bet he replaces bulbs every 6 months. He may not care for the drop off.
DiscusHeckel
Acropora Gardener
Thanks for your comments. I agree with them. My overall conclusion from my testing is that Pacific Sun tubes require more frequent replacements than ATI tubes do. How often? I do not know the answer, but every six months does not sound unreasonable.
Cheers
DH
DiscusHeckel
Acropora Gardener
Thanks. I beg to differ. Comparative data were provided in my original post. Here is an extract:
"Here is comparative data: Before using Pacific Sun tubes, I used ATI tubes (3 X ATI Blue + and 3 X Coral +). The orientation of the ATI tubes was exactly the same as the PS tubes (i.e. front ATI blue +/PS Crystal Blue, ATI Coral +/PS Spectra +, ATI blue +/PS Crystal Blue, ATI Coral +/PS Spectra +, ATI blue +/PS Crystal Blue, ATI Coral +/PS Spectra + back)
I installed the ATI tubes on 20/10/2013 (using the same incremental process). I repositioned my light unit ~9cm above the same brace bar on 13/04/2013 to get ~ 250 µmol m-2 s-1 reading (nearly six months after the first PAR reading). Notice that I used the "~" symbol, because ATI and Pacific Sun tubes are not identical though they are quite comparable. I have further data about the interim results, but I have not included them here as they would not demonstrate anything beyond that already demonstrated."
With all due respect, are you seriously suggesting that I should have run the Pacific Sun tubes another 7 months even though I established that PAR values of Pacific Sun Tubes at two months were more or less equal to those of ATI tubes at nearly six months. Well, if I had done that, my light unit would probably need to rest on the brace bars of my tank and my acroporids would probably become off colour (brown may be?). Life is too short. I have moved on.
Pacific Sun RD
Przemek Cybulski
Many advanced SPS aquarists replace t5 tubes every 6 -7 months - because PAR drop in this time is very big - and it also apply to most known brands(KZ/ATI/Giesmann etc). Its depend from tube construction and phoshporous layer thickness - which burn due this time. T5 tubes arent complicated space ships with advanced technology...
Maybe I missed that part of post where it was detailed described.
1. How big light/PAR drop (in % ) you saw in our tubes after two months?(the same distance from water, measurments on the same deep.
2. How big/small PAR drop (in %) you saw in similar(like ATI) tubes after two months?(conditions like above)
Knowing that two numbers (in exact numbers - not how much you had to lower your lamp to water surface in cm to get similar reading) allow to tell anything about lifetime/replacement freqency and real PAR drop in %.
For full image - there should be done another test after 6 months - which give us next numbers - so we can comapre PAR drop in first period(0-2 months) and second (3-6 months). Until you are not replacing tubes every two months - conclusions made after two months measurments are not objective at all..
You still remember that you are comparing two tube with similat but not THE SAME spectrum.
I can tell that some of ATI tubes have PAR drop more than 25% in two months. This drop depend from tube model. So - which conclusion I should have now?
I wrote it in capital letters because it's very important factor.
Second one is that we still talk about numbers - corals dont know them and until you dont use laboratory grade quantum meter - ANY tubes which will have spectrum shift after initial burning can be measured with hight % of error - like most popular apogee meters have(because it will depend of shift direction - to red or too blue).
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