The Zoa Naming Game

[berns]

i keep reading threads where arguments break out regarding true this and true that in regards to aleady named zoa's.

i do find this is becoming ridiculous and tobe honest the way the zoanthid data base works is to blame and these petty arguments are only gonna increase as time goes.

let me explain wat i mean as far as database workings.

eg 10 people have had similar coloured/pattern zoa colony in their tanks for a couple of years and tho all slightly different they are obviously very close morphs of each other and none have been named/id etc,

i come along and buy a frag from one of them and within a couple months ive got it listed on zoaid.com calling it a "JB"

so now the other 9 people with a similar morph find that their zoa's are somewat regarded as second rate varients of JB's and not the real deal etc.

this is happening now and will continue to happen in the future and the root of this problem is the way in which individual morphs of a variety are getting a name which then somehow degrades all other morphs in that colour/pattern variety to everyone.

so im now asking for a change when a zoanthid is named on the site regarded as the bible by most (zoaid.com) that they should be regarded as "variety or family" and be named as so eg .....ARMOUR OF GOD VARIETY" .... and for zoaid.com to post a few different morph zoa pictures within each variety/family

this will then stop all the petty arguments and stop many varient morphs being regarded as second rate/not the real deal etc cause someone got a name put on one of them.

cause for all we know the ARMOUR OF GOD zoa may actually be a second rate zoanthid morph of an original thats been sitting in peoples tanks long before AOG appeared.



just my 2 cents worth on the naming game.

ps... i used AOG just as an example cause theres an argument currently on that variety goin on in another thread)

 

[Reef Junkie]

Funny you mention this.
We've been trying to get this straightend out as we speak.
It's not as easy as it sounds.
I agree, it's silly when people argue over slight variations in a coral when they look so much alike.
I'd like to see a lot of these corals grouped into families of color. Yet, naming was only meant to help people identify what a coral looks like and was supposed to be for fun.
It's now become a powerful tool that some people exploit.

Cheers

 

[Mr. Ugly]

I didn't see any arguement there. Just info provided for clarification.

I named AoG a while back before all the zoa hype crazyness got extreme.

The AoG was imported about 3 years ago, and actually was a relatively uncommon zoa. Lately people have been calling lots of stuff AoG, and I see people asking for AoG ID's on various forums. Some people have been trying to use the AoG name to justify a high price for their sales.

Fwiw, I don't sell my AoG, and I've only traded to very few people - people that collect and propagate rather than hype and rip off.

I only posted the pics and info to help people avoid the hype and price gouging with the lookalikes which are actually a lot more common.

I have the AoG and most of the lookalikes, and I like them all. I don't sell, so I don't care what price gets put on them. I just don't like to see people getting ripped off on something that was started for fun.

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Yah, what RJ said

 

[Reef Junkie]

heh, Seriously Norm, we've been working on trying to get this fixed.
Your AoG would be an exception, they're unique.

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Hehe... doesn't matter to me if they're unique. I just don't like people getting taken advantage of if they think they're getting unique stuff(and paying a high price) when they're not unique.

I'd go for the group/category thing myself. I replied to that effect to Whodah somewhere

As far as AoG, Devil's Armor, Armageddon II, etc. The vendors that have all the different types do price accordingly with regard to rarity. If they're dealing regularly with west coast importers, they know which corals are truly rare vs "Ebay Rare" which often is a joke

 

[berns]

i wasnt picking on you mr.ugly i was just using AOG as an example as that was current, but you were just clarifying that your morph was the real deal lol

 

[berns]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8291108#post8291108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reef Junkie
Funny you mention this.
We've been trying to get this straightend out as we speak.
It's not as easy as it sounds.
I agree, it's silly when people argue over slight variations in a coral when they look so much alike.
I'd like to see a lot of these corals grouped into families of color. Yet, naming was only meant to help people identify what a coral looks like and was supposed to be for fun.
It's now become a powerful tool that some people exploit.

Cheers

nowt wrong with the naming idea its a great way as you say to help identify stuff but it has major floors the way it is.

its too individual in a room full of morphs of the same so whose got the original????????????

create a variety name is my choise and yes maybe there will be some varieties that currently contain just the one zoa but in time i bet that changes

 

[Speckled Grouper]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8291108#post8291108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reef Junkie

It's now become a powerful tool that some people exploit.

Like one of the LFS in my area, which used to have fair prices on zoas. The last time I went there, they had chopped up the rocks, made tiny frags out of them and had a ringbinder with all the fancy names in it and where asking astronomical prices.....sad.....

 

[familyreefer]

Can I get an AMEN!!!

Can I get an AMEN!!!

You guys are right on!! It is a $$ thang! I buy or trade for what I like. I started a thread here earleir today and specifically said "I don't know the names, I just get teh ones I like" What does it matter when your non hobbiest guest come over and you have "unobtainable from God" zoas? They don't know or care! they just look purty!

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Berns, no prob

Reefers should look out for each other instead of taking advantage

 

[Mr. Ugly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8291753#post8291753 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Speckled Grouper
The last time I went there, they had chopped up the rocks, made tiny frags out of them and had a ringbinder with all the fancy names in it and where asking astronomical prices.....sad.....

Well, if the zoas don't have a lot of wow factor, or if they are relatively common, they won't sell and his prices will have to come down.

Possibly they might sell to newbies or people unfamiliar with zoas. In that case, it's to our advantage to educate the newbies so they can make an informed purchase rather than getting caught up in the excitement.

Or else they might sell to people wanting to cash in on the current zoa popularity. People can help by making a point not to buy from or trade with those with a chopshop mentality. Again, educating newbies also would help.

 

[Mr. Ugly]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=945026

 

[Angela Short]

Mr. Ugly I know the guy in the link you just posted personally from my reef club and have been to his home buying and trading just last month. He is just like you and me wanting in on some nice cool zoa colors but sad thing is you have to have something to offer to get anything cool the way prices have gotten. He is in no way a chop shop, notice he is looking for trades. But its so hard to tell with the craze in the zoa community latley who loves zoas and who just wants to make money . I can vouch he is a super nice guy .
I absolutly love zooanthids and am saddened the name game has driven the prices up just as I am wanting to start colecting them. For someone just starting out collecting them its disharting at all the people trying to make redicouluse proffits on them. I look on line and just can't belive stuff goes for "x" amount a polyp. The average on a budget reefer is just out of luck short of taking out a second morgage. Unless you luck up and get your hands on something nice enouoh to trade .

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Hiya Angela,

Yeah, I shouldn't judge. I've only seen a few of his posts. And actually he sounds like a decent guy.

I just had a slightly negative impression because he asked for an ID, and was told what he had. Then he went ahead and posted that he had AoG/Armageddon for trade anyway. Well maybe he didn't see the recent answers to his ID request. So I should give him the benefit of the doubt.

The bigger issue, and maybe only because we had been talking about it in our club lately.... is that of the chopshop mentality.

Not necessarily that a person is an actual shop, but that they are chopping and selling/trading newly collected corals, with the main focus being on making a profit or making a cool trade because of a fad.

That in and of itself might not even be that bad, except for the fact that oftentimes the coral suffers and dies because we get greedy. Every time that happens, we contribute to the demise of our natural reefs.

He had said that his zoas were harvested recently, and had been tank hopping a lot. His pics are showing the zoas stressed and mostly closed. I've seen zoas that have gone through that kind of handling, only to be quickly chopped up for trades. By the time they get traded off, they end up melting in the new owner's tank because of all the cumulative stress

Much better for the zoas if we are patient and let them settle in. Even better if you frag the new aquacultured growth, rather than the wild polyps. He has a nice mother colony. Would be good if he can care for it and give it several months time to settle in and be happy in his tank.

As far as pricey corals, check out our club's "Dont' Break the Chain" project. It's a kind of pay it forward, coral propagation activitiy. We are propping some nice stuff including LE pieces in the program. Maybe your club can do something similar?

http://www.bareefers.org/BAR/viewforum.php?f=17&sid=47a81887245cdd2120d59ea8aeee39e9

Also, there are some people that trade and even like to help out newbies. PM'd you some info. You can share it with your friend.

 

[Ryanqk]

yes its a fact that colonies of a type of zoa can produce color morphs i have seen it in my own tank! That just changes the color a bit but they are the same zoa!

 

[Reef Junkie]

Without going into the chopshop naming game, some of this has gotten out of hand.
Yet, it wouldn't matter if they were given names or were rated by growth rate per polyp, this would happen no matter what.

I think what most new reefers (and some old) just need to educate themselves on what is ethical and what is just plain wrong.

We see a lot of people posting pictures of zoas, asking for an ID and the following day (or that day) putting them up for sale.

I think like Mr. Ugly said, "Well, if the zoas don't have a lot of wow factor, or if they are relatively common, they won't sell and his prices will have to come down."

If you see a zoa you like, ask around here or your local reef club about it. You can even ask me if you'd like. I've recently fielded a few questions from reefers that were skeptical of trades/buys they were about to make. Plus, there are A LOT of reefers on here that know what a truely nice zoa is compared to average zoas. On top of that, it's also up to individual tastes.

Zoa naming isn't a bad thing, it's what we do with the tool that makes the difference.

Cheers

 

[Angela Short]

I hope me sticking up for Greystreet didn't come off wronge Its so hard to know who is looking to turn a quick profit or just a little impatient with the written word. I agree things should definetly settle in and start growing before we cut on them some more but its very easy to get caught up in the moment with the zoa game! I have been guilty of selling off a few polyps fast to off set the cost of the mother colony also.
On another note, I think also if you were a newb looking through numerouse posts about how hardy zoa are you get a false sence of security to chop stuff up before its time. Just my opinion reading through this forum anyways. Some varieties are hardier than other for sure but others hate to be cut on.
I think the "don't break the chain" is a great idea and hopefully will drive the prices down a little but with ebay selling to people with endlessly deep pockets I would say prices are gonna hold steady for a good time. I hope not for my collections sake

 

[greystreet41]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8292871#post8292871 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=945026
I just had a slightly negative impression because he asked for an ID, and was told what he had. Then he went ahead and posted that he had AoG/Armageddon for trade anyway. Well maybe he didn't see the recent answers to his ID request. So I should give him the benefit of the doubt.

psst. It's a wonder I made it to this thread. I got a response 2 days after I posted the question. I had given up on getting any feedback. For a high traffic forum like this and to have so many views don't fault me that I didn't check back continuously or subscribe to the thread for someone to finallly give me their opionions on names (which is all I was after..opinions) So in short, no I did not go and seek out trades AFTER I received a few responses to the inquiry (which the responses were as I anticipated--I'm not that far off. Just off by YOUR estimation.

(now I'm seeing the rest of your post that you should give me the benefit of the doubt--sorry, not seeking your approval).

Of course there are no trades to happen until after they are doing better as I indicated in the post--something wrong with planning ahead? Now that I read all of the responses from the ID thread it seems you're the only one that is so definitive that only yours are "XYZ" and mine are none of the above. Seems like you have achieved a level of self-importance with zoa naming I want no part of. It's mind numbing that someone could be so naive to think there are not a variety of color morphs for the SAME zoathind under different circumstances.

The vendors that have all the different types do price accordingly with regard to rarity. If they're dealing regularly with west coast importers, they know which corals are truly rare vs "Ebay Rare" which often is a joke

simply not true. Only a diligent/informed importer, wholesaler, vendor would be able to keep up with all of the immediate desires. Trans-shippers for example don't have a clue what they're bagging a lot of the time--not always, but a lot. LFS take the name from the shipping invoice and transfer it directly to the display in many cases.

We're not talking Da Vinci Code here...geesh. Cheers just the same

 

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8294230#post8294230 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greystreet41
It's mind numbing that someone could be so naive to think there are not a variety of color morphs for the SAME zoathind under different circumstances.

thats EXACTLY whats wrong with this whole hobby right now regarding named corals.

if someone names *their* morph, then the only true way to know if you have that morph is to trace back the lineage.

there are so many fake superman monti's out there that dont look anything like the original. but once the demand went up for them, then wild colonies with an off blue base, and maroon/brown polyps would go up for sale with the name "superman" so places can make a profit off of a name. same thing is happening with all of these zoas.

i think mr.ugly is right on in regards to the AOG/Goochster/AOG2 debate.

now, in the end. if i have something that looks similar to what i think AOG looks like in pics, good for me. i still dont call it AOG though since i have no proof other than comparing a picture. which is a poor method in the first place due to differences in camera settings.

just my 2 cents. everyone should lighten up on the whole naming thing. just post a pic of what you got if you are looking to sell or trade. they are what they are and dont need fancy names associated with so you can claim rarity.