fishymissy
New member
I wanted to add that I feel so bad for everyone who has lost clams to this disease.....
This is painful to watch! Can I save my clams?
- Thread starter ReefDream
- Start date
Hi Jim,
My thinking is about what you have been thinking. As you know, most of my clams are bought in LA and I haven't had a problem at all. 95% of all the LFS in southern ca are buy clams in LA and I have checked with several in the last 4 days and NO one is having that problem that has been described. It appears that the majority of problem are related to northern ca. and a few other places. Some one was saying that most are dying with-in 3-7 day and I hold my clams longer in most cases and have experience this type of problems.
Sorry we weren't able to hook up while you were in the area.
Barry
My thinking is about what you have been thinking. As you know, most of my clams are bought in LA and I haven't had a problem at all. 95% of all the LFS in southern ca are buy clams in LA and I have checked with several in the last 4 days and NO one is having that problem that has been described. It appears that the majority of problem are related to northern ca. and a few other places. Some one was saying that most are dying with-in 3-7 day and I hold my clams longer in most cases and have experience this type of problems.
Sorry we weren't able to hook up while you were in the area.
Barry
jim norris
In Memoriam
Barry,
You are one of the smart caring ones! Holding the clams for weeks before selling allowing the clams to adjust. Asking people about their systems. Disneyland took it's toll on me. (man I am getting old!)
Jim
You are one of the smart caring ones! Holding the clams for weeks before selling allowing the clams to adjust. Asking people about their systems. Disneyland took it's toll on me. (man I am getting old!)
Jim
I have had this clam problem or disaster depending on how you see it too. I was so sick about my clams dying I didn't know what to do. Mine died exactly as slojmn described. One by one and daily to get up and turn the lights on was horrible as there would always be another clam dead or showing signs of dying. I had 10 clams, some that were very established and over 3 years in my care. In the end my 1 derasa made it through all the mess. I was frantic for help and ended up emailing Daniel Knop. He replied that he thought bacterial was the most probable cause. This all started at the beginning of March and by the end of March beginning of April things were done. I kept waiting for the derasa to go but Thank Heavens it made it and never showed signs of the problems. Mine would start gapping, mantle folding into the shell and then a coccoon of slime encasing the entire clam. I have clams in my 180 and none of them have had problems and lately within the last 10 weeks have tried 2 of toptanks clams in the 120 and they have been fine.
I hope something is done about this problem as Mr. Knop told me that diagnosing this clam problem wouldn't be financially feasible, but now that so many are having this horrible problem maybe someone will figure it out. With clams it is so sad to have to watch and be so helpless and no one willing to help.
my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html
I hope something is done about this problem as Mr. Knop told me that diagnosing this clam problem wouldn't be financially feasible, but now that so many are having this horrible problem maybe someone will figure it out. With clams it is so sad to have to watch and be so helpless and no one willing to help.
my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html
My prized crocea, the last of the three clams, was showing signs of gaping and coughing and slime yesterday. I put it in a 5 gallon bucket with airstone, light, and heater. I added a full capsule of tetracycline dissolved (I'll need to get a hold of my doctor friend when he returns to get the exact type). This morning the clam shows NO signs of the problems anymore and is even well extended. I think it would be dead this morning without the antibiotic.
I have one more pill left (my doctor friend gave me two). I am going to replace the water again and dissolve another capsule. Either tomorrow or the next day, I'll put the clam into my established quarantine tank. If he lives, I'll move him back to the main tank in a few weeks after I feel safer.
I have one more pill left (my doctor friend gave me two). I am going to replace the water again and dissolve another capsule. Either tomorrow or the next day, I'll put the clam into my established quarantine tank. If he lives, I'll move him back to the main tank in a few weeks after I feel safer.
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holeinone1972
Team RC Member
Reefdream, thanks for the info. I have been watching all these clam posts very closley. I am just getting ready to open up my own clam distributorship, and I have been very scared lately. I have talked with my importer and no problems as of yet. Please let us know what kind of antibiotic and what strength it was. I am keeping my fingers crossed for your clam. Best of luck, Rob
Mad Scientist
Premium Member
Scary stuff!
I hope everyone's clams pull through, after losing my tear drop I have not lost any of my other clams (although several clams where gaping untill I put on my UV ans till don't look 100%). I have a 29gal with a 250mh (10K german),all my other calms were doing great and I could not belive I lost the teardrop in 8 days (same systmoms), dont' look liked it bleached at all either, just lack of mantle extension and then rapid death. I worked hard to ahve "ideal" water conditions (a little nitrate, pH 8.1-8, 11DKH, 80deg, daily greenwater) and I'm still in shock over losing this clam.
I hope everyone's clams pull through, after losing my tear drop I have not lost any of my other clams (although several clams where gaping untill I put on my UV ans till don't look 100%). I have a 29gal with a 250mh (10K german),all my other calms were doing great and I could not belive I lost the teardrop in 8 days (same systmoms), dont' look liked it bleached at all either, just lack of mantle extension and then rapid death. I worked hard to ahve "ideal" water conditions (a little nitrate, pH 8.1-8, 11DKH, 80deg, daily greenwater) and I'm still in shock over losing this clam.
In the five gallon bucket, I am using NDC (National Drug Code) 59911-5870-1 pills. These capsules contain 100 mg of minocycline HCl and are two-piece, hard-shell capsules with an opaque light green cap and a transparent yellow body, printed in white ink with "59911-5870" on the cap. Refer to <a href="http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/minocycline_ids.htm">this page</a> for more information.
Yesterday I dissolved 1 capsule (100mg) in a 5-gallon bucket full of tank water, put some fresh crushed coral on the bottom, an airstone, and a heater. The clam was placed on the pile of crushed coral (it sits on my Southdown sandbed normally). I also put two tablespoons of DTS in the bucket for him to eat (since there cannot be much light or else this antibiotic decomposes).
I was reading from <a href="http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/disease_4.html">on this fish disease site</a> that for Malawi bloat (a bacterial disease - gram negative), the author says "For minocycline we recommend 250mg/10 gallons of water. On day 2 change all the water and add the medicine again at the same dose for another 2 days."
I am going to stick with this for the clams. I know this is all a long shot, but I am desperate at this point.
Yesterday I dissolved 1 capsule (100mg) in a 5-gallon bucket full of tank water, put some fresh crushed coral on the bottom, an airstone, and a heater. The clam was placed on the pile of crushed coral (it sits on my Southdown sandbed normally). I also put two tablespoons of DTS in the bucket for him to eat (since there cannot be much light or else this antibiotic decomposes).
I was reading from <a href="http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/disease_4.html">on this fish disease site</a> that for Malawi bloat (a bacterial disease - gram negative), the author says "For minocycline we recommend 250mg/10 gallons of water. On day 2 change all the water and add the medicine again at the same dose for another 2 days."
I am going to stick with this for the clams. I know this is all a long shot, but I am desperate at this point.
holeinone1972
Team RC Member
Great post reefdream!! Thanks and keep us updated!!!!!
Well, I found out some more useful information. As it turns out, Sprung and Delbeck are recommended the tetracycline family for this problem as well (so actually, my minocycline will, by complete serendipity, work). In particular they recommend doxycycline probably because of its relatively low affinity to calcium binding (good in a high-calcium organism). Now, where does one get that stuff without holding your local doctor hostage?
The answer was found about as far from my mind as possible as I set out on the search! The answer is in racing pigeon care. Racing pigeons are sometimes given a doxycycline solution to prevent respiratory infection after coming home from a race. The concentration of such a solution is, I have read, 500 to 1000 mg/gallon of water. This is 20 to 40 times the strength recommended by fish experts in treating fish bacterial infections. That might be expected too as saltwater organisms are constantly processing water since they have to counter the osmotic pressure that forces them to dehydrate all the time.
I found a place in Savannah, Georgia called <a href="http://www.globalpigeon.com/main.html">Global Pigeon Supplies</a> that sells enough to treat 400 to 800 gallons of saltwater (depending on what concentration they are using for the pigeons) for $22.95 + $7 shipping. I'll probably get it on Wednesday.
<b>If ANYONE in the bay area has had their clams come down with this problem, please contact me immediately via E-mail. I will gladly donate enough antibiotic to cure the clam. I won't have it in for a few days, though.</b>
The answer was found about as far from my mind as possible as I set out on the search! The answer is in racing pigeon care. Racing pigeons are sometimes given a doxycycline solution to prevent respiratory infection after coming home from a race. The concentration of such a solution is, I have read, 500 to 1000 mg/gallon of water. This is 20 to 40 times the strength recommended by fish experts in treating fish bacterial infections. That might be expected too as saltwater organisms are constantly processing water since they have to counter the osmotic pressure that forces them to dehydrate all the time.
I found a place in Savannah, Georgia called <a href="http://www.globalpigeon.com/main.html">Global Pigeon Supplies</a> that sells enough to treat 400 to 800 gallons of saltwater (depending on what concentration they are using for the pigeons) for $22.95 + $7 shipping. I'll probably get it on Wednesday.
<b>If ANYONE in the bay area has had their clams come down with this problem, please contact me immediately via E-mail. I will gladly donate enough antibiotic to cure the clam. I won't have it in for a few days, though.</b>
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ReefDream,
That is great that maybe you have come up with a medication to head off this bacteria infections.
The fact still remains that the source of what kind of clams and where they are coming from need to be identified. If this is not done then we are treating a bacteria and possible bring it back into our tanks again. I have heard from some people in the Bay Area that have told me the type of clams that they were buying but really dislike passing on second hand information. So hopefully some of those people will share that with us.
Myself and some other distributors and LFS have ruled out some of the importers and whole sellers as we have not had a problem like has been described. There is a whole seller that prefers not to do business with local LFS and distributors for what ever reason. That I do know.
Barry
That is great that maybe you have come up with a medication to head off this bacteria infections.
The fact still remains that the source of what kind of clams and where they are coming from need to be identified. If this is not done then we are treating a bacteria and possible bring it back into our tanks again. I have heard from some people in the Bay Area that have told me the type of clams that they were buying but really dislike passing on second hand information. So hopefully some of those people will share that with us.
Myself and some other distributors and LFS have ruled out some of the importers and whole sellers as we have not had a problem like has been described. There is a whole seller that prefers not to do business with local LFS and distributors for what ever reason. That I do know.
Barry
Barry, I will e-mail you a number and person to call if you'd like to know the specific importer. I don't off hand know, but I do know the importer did offer this particular LFS another shipment of clams to replace all those he lost and the LFS owner refused them. He is NOT happy, and there are a lot of folks in the bay area that aren't too happy either. I know of at least 50 clams that have died due to this, and my guess there are hundreds that will die or have died already from this one incident as it systematically wipes out everyone's clams in the bay area whom bought a sick clam from this store.
Keep in mind, Barry, that this problem isn't apparent until the clam has about 1 to 3 days to live. Once you notice the coughing, the mucus, the gaping at night, etc. you don't have long before the clam dies, and it will die at night only. In the morning, the clam will have mucus all over the top, the mantle will be withdrawn, and those critters that love clam meat--worms, bugs, cleaner shrimp, fish, whatever--will be feasting.
Also keep in mind that the problem might not show up for weeks after the purchase. In my case it took TWO weeks! The LFS had about a two week delay as well, and we know exactly what shipment it was so that time is confirmed. Keeping the clam a week at a mail order holding facility might help, but that's not long enough to make sure the clam won't die in the next week or two. I'd say about a month would be needed to make sure the clam is healthy.
I bought two clams. One was a beautiful 4" Squamosa that looks like those one would get from Figi. The other was a small (2" about) super-bright blue crocea. Both looked perfect at purchase. The Squamosa died first. The small crocea died next. My older big crocea was going to be next if it weren't for the minocycline treatment it is getting now. The deaths seem to stagger out too, with no two clams dying the same day, as those who have had many losses can atest.
Keep in mind, Barry, that this problem isn't apparent until the clam has about 1 to 3 days to live. Once you notice the coughing, the mucus, the gaping at night, etc. you don't have long before the clam dies, and it will die at night only. In the morning, the clam will have mucus all over the top, the mantle will be withdrawn, and those critters that love clam meat--worms, bugs, cleaner shrimp, fish, whatever--will be feasting.
Also keep in mind that the problem might not show up for weeks after the purchase. In my case it took TWO weeks! The LFS had about a two week delay as well, and we know exactly what shipment it was so that time is confirmed. Keeping the clam a week at a mail order holding facility might help, but that's not long enough to make sure the clam won't die in the next week or two. I'd say about a month would be needed to make sure the clam is healthy.
I bought two clams. One was a beautiful 4" Squamosa that looks like those one would get from Figi. The other was a small (2" about) super-bright blue crocea. Both looked perfect at purchase. The Squamosa died first. The small crocea died next. My older big crocea was going to be next if it weren't for the minocycline treatment it is getting now. The deaths seem to stagger out too, with no two clams dying the same day, as those who have had many losses can atest.
ReefDream, The only difference for my situation in your description above of the clam deaths is that none of my scavengers would touch the clam meat on any of the 9 clams that died. I found this odd
I am also posting to both of these threads...hopefully not confusing to everyone
I just figure the more info the better as I am tellign my story first hand
The list of deaths: Time in system is close, I did not take the time to look up receipts and notes on each clam but they are relatively close time frames.
1 4" T max new
2 2" T max 1 new, 1 4 months in system
1 2" squamosa new
1 3" T max 5 months in system
2 4" croceas 1 year in system
1 5" T max 18 months in system
1 7" T max 6 months in system
I am also posting to both of these threads...hopefully not confusing to everyone
I just figure the more info the better as I am tellign my story first handThe list of deaths: Time in system is close, I did not take the time to look up receipts and notes on each clam but they are relatively close time frames.
1 4" T max new
2 2" T max 1 new, 1 4 months in system
1 2" squamosa new
1 3" T max 5 months in system
2 4" croceas 1 year in system
1 5" T max 18 months in system
1 7" T max 6 months in system
ok....sorry ive been gone so long since i am the first o say anything about the disease. So far in the past 4 years this has happened in Ca 3 times. so far nothing has stopped it and the waiting period of about 6 months is recommended before adding new clams. i would assume a UV would help but have heard no results with this yet. I work at an LFS (very respected in the bay area) that i will not say due to not wanting to lose my job, we get alot of our clams from the l.a. area but dont know specific destributors. So far people buying clams from us have not reported any problems but many of our customers have had this problem from purchasing clams all over the bay. Good luck to all of you and i am very sorry for all of the losses. oh yeah my friend lost the 16 clams in about 2 weeks total. many of them were 5 -6 years old.
hreef
Member
This happened to me/ I posted this on RC 6-02-02.
This happened to me/ I posted this on RC 6-02-02.
I know how you feel. I ordered 3 -2 inch maximas from FFE 1 -1/2 months ago. I had a total of 11 clams ranging from 3 to 5 inches. All were doing great! I have had some of these clams for 6 months. Well just about a week ago all of my clams died. I do not know what happened. The baby clams I got from FFE I think harbored some kind of Bacteria. I guess it was the clams that caused this?? I do not know. Because all of my clams were doing great until I intoduced the 3. I am still sick about the whole thing. I am not getting any clams for a while. I fed Dt's, took care of all of my clams like I do with everything in my reef. It was like a plague that took over the clams. I would even take off on my lunch break to check on the clams with the doom of another dying. I am sorry this happened to you. I know how you feel. Give it a while and try later. I just hate that this happened. Holly
This happened to me/ I posted this on RC 6-02-02.
I know how you feel. I ordered 3 -2 inch maximas from FFE 1 -1/2 months ago. I had a total of 11 clams ranging from 3 to 5 inches. All were doing great! I have had some of these clams for 6 months. Well just about a week ago all of my clams died. I do not know what happened. The baby clams I got from FFE I think harbored some kind of Bacteria. I guess it was the clams that caused this?? I do not know. Because all of my clams were doing great until I intoduced the 3. I am still sick about the whole thing. I am not getting any clams for a while. I fed Dt's, took care of all of my clams like I do with everything in my reef. It was like a plague that took over the clams. I would even take off on my lunch break to check on the clams with the doom of another dying. I am sorry this happened to you. I know how you feel. Give it a while and try later. I just hate that this happened. Holly
I called the pigeon people(http://www.globalpigeon.com/main.html). The concentration of the doxycycline liquid they sell is 20% doxycycline HCL (by weight) in their formulation. That would mean that 1 teaspoon would treat about 40 gallons, and the entire bottle (100gr) will treat 800 gallons. One ml should weight about a gram (since it's mostly water) so would be 200mg of doxycycline or enough to treat 8 gallons of saltwater water for the clam bath. This means that this stuff is CHEAP, and I am going to make sure my LFS gets a bottle for themselves and customers. I ended up canceling my own order, though, since I got some doxycycline capsules from a friend/doctor I know locally.
My clam I am saving in the antibiotics looks fine this morning. Again, this is a clam that was shuttering, had mucus, and was gaping three days ago prior to the antibiotics, so I am pretty certain it would be dead by now if it weren't for the antibiotics. I have been changing the water every day now and using new antibiotic. I have also been feeding it ample DTS phytoplankton since it is in darkness (required since the light will destroy the antibiotic). I want to keep it in the antibiotics (w/ DTS phyto) until Wednesday. Of course, it isn't over until it's over, and things can change in the blink of an eye with clams from my limited experience.
My clam I am saving in the antibiotics looks fine this morning. Again, this is a clam that was shuttering, had mucus, and was gaping three days ago prior to the antibiotics, so I am pretty certain it would be dead by now if it weren't for the antibiotics. I have been changing the water every day now and using new antibiotic. I have also been feeding it ample DTS phytoplankton since it is in darkness (required since the light will destroy the antibiotic). I want to keep it in the antibiotics (w/ DTS phyto) until Wednesday. Of course, it isn't over until it's over, and things can change in the blink of an eye with clams from my limited experience.
Just wanted to leave an update about my crocea. The clam is not gaping. It looks okay, but as I look more closely, there is one problem still. It is producing a LOT of mucus. Either this is a side effect of the antibiotic or the antibiotic is just allowing it to live long enough for me to put it back in the tank where it will die. I am putting it back into the tank tomorrow. I'll report what happens.
TurboBrett
Member
Where is it producing mucus? From the bysal opening underneath?
