saltkreep, if this thing can wipe out a tank, then we'd best figure out what the heck it is. A dozen clams is really, really bad. An entire SPS tank, though, is unthinkable! I don't want to declare the sky is falling, but this is scary, serious stuff. I wonder if the dying clams have started some sort of bacterial chain reaction.
This is painful to watch! Can I save my clams?
- Thread starter ReefDream
- Start date
You could have fooled me with all those long deep water fish names you've memorized and told everyone at the SF meeting a couple weeks back!
What an awesome presentation, though!I did not use the bird dosage. The dosage used in water fed to Pigeons is roughly 40-60 times the dosage I used. Racing pigeons, for example, are given water containing about 1000-1500 mg/gallon. That is why I recommend pigeon doxycycline sources; it is, by necessity of application and demand, dirt cheap from those sources.
What I said was that the dosage that is recommended for birds per kilogram body weight is approximately equal to that I am using per kilogram clam treatment water. Since a pigeon drinks a few tablespoons of water a day, the dosage put in their water must be much more concentrated to dose the proper amount considering their body size. Any animal is mostly water, including clams. The big difference is that I assumed a clam reaches an antibiotic concentration equalibrium with its holding water, whereas a bird simply holds its water (well mostly). It makes sense to me, then, that the surrounding concentration of antibiotic for a clam should be about the concentration recommended for the fluids of a bird's body.
Moreover, the dosage I used was not a guess based on birds anyway--that information I stumbled on later. Originally, I was reading <a href="http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/disease_4.html">on this fish disease site</a> that for Malawi bloat (a bacterial disease - gram negative), the author says "For minocycline we recommend 250mg/10 gallons of water. On day 2 change all the water and add the medicine again at the same dose for another 2 days." Minocycline is nearly identical to doxycycline, so I figured the dosage would hold for it as well.
Sorry for the confusion.
Its possible but impossible to say for sure I'm afraid.
Mmm ... I assume the sump is connected to the main tank? If the only symptom you are seeing is no polyp extension, I would be inclined to wait and see what happens ... as long as no tissue loss is apparent and no losses occur I would hold off with any treatment. However, if you actually begin to notice tissue loss or recession then your last course may have to be treating the tank with an antibiotic. Also check ammonia levels, there may have been a spike due to the clam deaths ... but it has probably passed by now, but the lingering effects may be shown by the corals.
Keep us updated ...
Aloha!
J. Charles Delbeek
Charles,
Yes, the sump is connected to the main system. The lighting over the sump is only 1 mh coral life 10k/175:hmm2: Is there a possibility that intense lighting is breeding bacteria in the tank? (unbenifical) The main tank lighting is much more intense. I run 2 250 10k AB/3 VHO actinic and 1 VHO aquasun. Keep in mind everything under less lighting has polyp extension. There is only one colony in my main tank, which is shaded by other corals, and still has polyp extension. Is there a possibility that clams that are being treated in a tank with no light the bacteria remains dormant; but when returned to the main tank, with intense lighting, the bacteria regenerates? Is flavo bacteria a light sensitive bacteria?
From the time clams started dying until this day, all parameters have been in check, including ammonia. Coral coloration has deteriorated since clam deaths.
Today, I took an encrusting montipora to Eddie at Tropical Paradise, which showed signs of drastic physical changes since loss of polyp extension. Encrusting colonies, as well as branching colonies are showing growths of spikes in lieu of polyps. Eddie was very puzzled and has seen nothing like this before. Eddie was going to talk to the toxicologist as well as give you a call regarding this physical change.
At this time I have decided to decrease lighting or possibly shut it down all together for a couple of days to see if in fact it makes a difference in my SPS colonies polyp extension/colors.
I'm still wondering about the clam treatment. It seems to me the majority of clams that have been treated have been fine until they were returned to intense lighting:idea: Also, these clams were not returned to an infected system.
Scott
Yes, the sump is connected to the main system. The lighting over the sump is only 1 mh coral life 10k/175:hmm2: Is there a possibility that intense lighting is breeding bacteria in the tank? (unbenifical) The main tank lighting is much more intense. I run 2 250 10k AB/3 VHO actinic and 1 VHO aquasun. Keep in mind everything under less lighting has polyp extension. There is only one colony in my main tank, which is shaded by other corals, and still has polyp extension. Is there a possibility that clams that are being treated in a tank with no light the bacteria remains dormant; but when returned to the main tank, with intense lighting, the bacteria regenerates? Is flavo bacteria a light sensitive bacteria?
From the time clams started dying until this day, all parameters have been in check, including ammonia. Coral coloration has deteriorated since clam deaths.
Today, I took an encrusting montipora to Eddie at Tropical Paradise, which showed signs of drastic physical changes since loss of polyp extension. Encrusting colonies, as well as branching colonies are showing growths of spikes in lieu of polyps. Eddie was very puzzled and has seen nothing like this before. Eddie was going to talk to the toxicologist as well as give you a call regarding this physical change.
At this time I have decided to decrease lighting or possibly shut it down all together for a couple of days to see if in fact it makes a difference in my SPS colonies polyp extension/colors.
I'm still wondering about the clam treatment. It seems to me the majority of clams that have been treated have been fine until they were returned to intense lighting:idea: Also, these clams were not returned to an infected system.
Scott
Scott, That is a real bummer about your sps problems. I have been keeping a close eye on my sps corals since you mentioned this earlier in this thread. I have not noticed any difference in polyp extension or coloration since the clam deaths began back in late May. Something to still keep an eye out for though. I lost 11 clams over the course of this thing but all sps corals are growing and doing well. I even fragged some colonies during this time and the spots are healing well. Very strange for you. I sure hope this is something else. I have not noticed anyone else mentioning loss or problems wiht their sps corals so this could be an isolated occurence.
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
Just thought I would add my limited experiences to this thread. I have occasionally sold Ponape maxima clams that were being housed within a business associates tank. Not my specialty and I really only do it to help him. Just so you know I currently do not stock Ponape maxima clams within DE's systems, while my business associate has a few. DE no longer sells them for him. Over the past two years I have occasionally added my input to the Ponape importer through an employee of his. I recommended a few years ago what has become the standard reaction from the importer to heavy losses within maxima clams. Remove a dying clam from the system quickly. If you pull the clam from your system and it literally stinks very bad, you waited too long. When clams die they can really degrade quickly and its possible that this potential disease organism proliferates within the dieing clam. Now that is very difficult to do when one of your prize clams is dieing but it may help save an entire clam tank.
I recently setup a 300 gallon system to hold about 70 maxima clams that were hand delivered straight from the supplier. You can guess what eventually happened. One of the complicating factors is that these clams spawned the first night they were within their system. Sperm and eggs. About 5 males and 3 females went off. My initial DOA rate from the hand delivered clams was very good. Almost no losses within the first 2 weeks, then the situation deteriorated quickly. Luckily only three of DE's customers recieved clams from this system which has been shut down and is not being used. My guess is that due to stress the clams spawn when they are first put into a holding system within the states. This leads to a water quality degradation which can cause clams to become infected by the bacteria. What Charles Delbeek posted here and on reefs.org is very good information that I agree with. Especially with respect to temperature. Hence my decision to not sell clams right now. Concentrating on my core SPS business.
Other observations I noticed - Hippopus were not affected. Other bivalves were not affected such as rock oysters. The disease has not spread to corals from what I have seen within my associates tanks. When a clam dies it appears to really pollute the water with bacteria and rotting organic matter.
Well those are my experiences and I have to be careful because in the past when a disease was coming in (1996 sps RTN problem) I was threatened with a lawsuit if I discussed things in public. That has not happened in this case, but I decided to not mention any names anyway. Its really a shame because we also recently recieved some real nice SPS fragments from Ponape that are doing fantastic. The importer however cannot find a wholesale market for them.
Please note I am very busy and wont be reading this thread often. Like I said, imported maxima clams are not my specialty. Just helping an associate. Aquarist should realize however that diseases can occur within captive raised, farmed, cultured or wild caught animals. From what I have seen though, farmed and captive raised animals are very healthy and less prone to disease.
I recently setup a 300 gallon system to hold about 70 maxima clams that were hand delivered straight from the supplier. You can guess what eventually happened. One of the complicating factors is that these clams spawned the first night they were within their system. Sperm and eggs. About 5 males and 3 females went off. My initial DOA rate from the hand delivered clams was very good. Almost no losses within the first 2 weeks, then the situation deteriorated quickly. Luckily only three of DE's customers recieved clams from this system which has been shut down and is not being used. My guess is that due to stress the clams spawn when they are first put into a holding system within the states. This leads to a water quality degradation which can cause clams to become infected by the bacteria. What Charles Delbeek posted here and on reefs.org is very good information that I agree with. Especially with respect to temperature. Hence my decision to not sell clams right now. Concentrating on my core SPS business.
Other observations I noticed - Hippopus were not affected. Other bivalves were not affected such as rock oysters. The disease has not spread to corals from what I have seen within my associates tanks. When a clam dies it appears to really pollute the water with bacteria and rotting organic matter.
Well those are my experiences and I have to be careful because in the past when a disease was coming in (1996 sps RTN problem) I was threatened with a lawsuit if I discussed things in public. That has not happened in this case, but I decided to not mention any names anyway. Its really a shame because we also recently recieved some real nice SPS fragments from Ponape that are doing fantastic. The importer however cannot find a wholesale market for them.
Please note I am very busy and wont be reading this thread often. Like I said, imported maxima clams are not my specialty. Just helping an associate. Aquarist should realize however that diseases can occur within captive raised, farmed, cultured or wild caught animals. From what I have seen though, farmed and captive raised animals are very healthy and less prone to disease.
Hammer
New member
Has anyone else have a hippopus that is/was in the same tank as effected clams?
Just a note in my case, none of mine showed signs of mucus. Rather, the clam would only just start to pull it's mantle in, then died within a day. I lost a large number of clams including some of my personal favorites. 9" blue derasa, 6" black maxima, and other small but missed clams.
I had not read any of this thread at the time my hippopus was the sole remaining clam. This clam no resides in a friend's tank, and while showing signs of stress, is still hanging in there.
Just a note in my case, none of mine showed signs of mucus. Rather, the clam would only just start to pull it's mantle in, then died within a day. I lost a large number of clams including some of my personal favorites. 9" blue derasa, 6" black maxima, and other small but missed clams.
I had not read any of this thread at the time my hippopus was the sole remaining clam. This clam no resides in a friend's tank, and while showing signs of stress, is still hanging in there.
reefmkr
New member
I might have some proplem with acro's now, I notice my milipora RTN when my 2 clam's die about week ago ,I didn't thought it was due to bacteria since I move the mili form bottom to top of the tank. now I have other acro are loseing tissue, I wonder if I having problem due to bacteria or something?
I going to do water change and throw in some carbon in the tank now.
am I the only one who is haveing problem with acro's???
I going to do water change and throw in some carbon in the tank now.
am I the only one who is haveing problem with acro's???
Found this website, very interesting info on Flavobacteria:
http://www.homepage.montana.edu/~umbls/mb301/bact/bactflav.htm
Anyone see any yellow/brown discolouration on the gills of their clams?
JCD
http://www.homepage.montana.edu/~umbls/mb301/bact/bactflav.htm
Anyone see any yellow/brown discolouration on the gills of their clams?
JCD
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
reefmaker,
Anytime you have some animals die within a reef, there is the chance that bacterial densities can raise to high levels. This can possibly lead to bacterial infections within sps coral. You need to aggressively change water and use carbon. Be careful that light levels can rise due to the use of carbon making the water more clear. Also, this is summertime and many reefs run a little too warm this time of year. You can help compensate by using shorter light photoperiods. The hobby usually loses a few reefs in the United States every summer due to heat. If the Acros are being infected with bacteria then a dip within a lugols iodine bath can only help them, if properly done. 10 drops lugols (5 % iodine) to each liter of dip water (taken from tank). Dip acro for 10 to 20 minutes. Dip will probably kill associate animals such as shrimps and crabs. There are ways to test bacterial densities such as the Hach TBD kit, but its expensive to use and you really need to take a reading while the tank is running good to have a control to compare to. What Charles said about UV is also a concern due to the coral being recently moved higher in the reef. At this time I would not suspect the potential clam pathogen has infected your sps corals. We kept some large Montipora capricornis within the holding tanks where our clams had problems and they did fine. In my situation we initially suspected that the sperm from the clam spawn had negatively affected the clams. That was until one of my customers pointed me to this thread and another one. We were unaware of the possible disease being a problem again. But it is summertime.
Anytime you have some animals die within a reef, there is the chance that bacterial densities can raise to high levels. This can possibly lead to bacterial infections within sps coral. You need to aggressively change water and use carbon. Be careful that light levels can rise due to the use of carbon making the water more clear. Also, this is summertime and many reefs run a little too warm this time of year. You can help compensate by using shorter light photoperiods. The hobby usually loses a few reefs in the United States every summer due to heat. If the Acros are being infected with bacteria then a dip within a lugols iodine bath can only help them, if properly done. 10 drops lugols (5 % iodine) to each liter of dip water (taken from tank). Dip acro for 10 to 20 minutes. Dip will probably kill associate animals such as shrimps and crabs. There are ways to test bacterial densities such as the Hach TBD kit, but its expensive to use and you really need to take a reading while the tank is running good to have a control to compare to. What Charles said about UV is also a concern due to the coral being recently moved higher in the reef. At this time I would not suspect the potential clam pathogen has infected your sps corals. We kept some large Montipora capricornis within the holding tanks where our clams had problems and they did fine. In my situation we initially suspected that the sperm from the clam spawn had negatively affected the clams. That was until one of my customers pointed me to this thread and another one. We were unaware of the possible disease being a problem again. But it is summertime.
Hi Steve,
It's great to see you and Charles posting as we know that you both are really busy.
I haven't been over to see you in a long time, must take some time to do that. Are you still in the same location?
Are far as clams dying, do either of you think that this bacteria infection will or can remain in the tank for some time? I heard that you also lost some as well as others, did it start with the Pohnipei clams? Maybe you have answered that and I missed it.
Barry
It's great to see you and Charles posting as we know that you both are really busy.
I haven't been over to see you in a long time, must take some time to do that. Are you still in the same location?
Are far as clams dying, do either of you think that this bacteria infection will or can remain in the tank for some time? I heard that you also lost some as well as others, did it start with the Pohnipei clams? Maybe you have answered that and I missed it.
Barry
There are a lot of bacteria within the flavobacteria family, including the genus Flavobacteria which has over 15 species listed. The preliminary tests showed "a" flavobacteria present but no indication of which genus or species. Many of these are anaerobic in nature but in the genus Flavobacteria most are aerobic chemotrophs ... interestingly this genus contains species that affect the gills of fish so one would expect the fish to be infected not clams and corals.
But it is too soon to know what is going on as testing continues to find out what this bacterium is and what its mode of operation is and even if it is the primary cause and not a secondary infection.
Scott, if you used carbon aggressively in the last few days this may be allowing more UV to penetrate to your corals. This would also explain why shaded portions are open and those in the sump under lower light are open too. Try a piece of 1/4" acrylic over the tank, that will block out 80-90% of the UV. 10,000 K lamps have a lot of UV comparatively speaking. The more info coming out, the less likely it seems to me that your coral's reactions are due to the clam problem and more to what you did to the tank in response i.e. aggressive water changes and carbon usage.
Aloha!
JCD
But it is too soon to know what is going on as testing continues to find out what this bacterium is and what its mode of operation is and even if it is the primary cause and not a secondary infection.
Scott, if you used carbon aggressively in the last few days this may be allowing more UV to penetrate to your corals. This would also explain why shaded portions are open and those in the sump under lower light are open too. Try a piece of 1/4" acrylic over the tank, that will block out 80-90% of the UV. 10,000 K lamps have a lot of UV comparatively speaking. The more info coming out, the less likely it seems to me that your coral's reactions are due to the clam problem and more to what you did to the tank in response i.e. aggressive water changes and carbon usage.
Aloha!
JCD
Charles, I noticed discoloration on the gills of a few of my clams that were lost. It seemed somewhat tan to light brown, not the nice white that they were to begin with.
Just a note on the iodine dips. I dip all sps colonies and frags I get before putting them in my reef per Steve Tyree's website directions and have found that the commensal crabs that came in on two colonies lived through the procedure just fine. I was sure they wouldn't make it through the dip but couldn't get to them to remove them from the coral heads so in they went. I have not ever had any commensal shrimps but the crabs survived.
Thanks so much for everyones input to this thread, very helpful and informative
despite my losses 
Just a note on the iodine dips. I dip all sps colonies and frags I get before putting them in my reef per Steve Tyree's website directions and have found that the commensal crabs that came in on two colonies lived through the procedure just fine. I was sure they wouldn't make it through the dip but couldn't get to them to remove them from the coral heads so in they went. I have not ever had any commensal shrimps but the crabs survived.
Thanks so much for everyones input to this thread, very helpful and informative
despite my losses Charles,
Have been reading these threads for weeks and maybe I am off base but I think it would have originated from one source. I base this on buying clams from only one supplier and I know that they have not has a problem and I house my clams for at least 7-10 days before shipping and have not experienced any such loses. If these infected clams came from one source and this source had the infection already in the tank, would it be fair to say that all healthy clams would also be infected and then distributing them to other locations and then it becomes a chain reaction. I have heard so much about treating this bacteria infection but really haven't heard much about the source. We can treat the problem but nothing says that it will not continue until the source has done something to stop it.
I was reading something yesterday about whitespot disease which sometimes can be very hard to see. If there are a few clams in a tank that has this and then introducing new specimens that have a reduced immune system due to transportation and or environment changes could then could fall victim to the infection as well. This could contribute a epidemic spread.
I think I would have to eliminate the oversea sources as I am of the understanding that one oversea suppler does in most cases supply more than one importer. Any thought on this?
Barry
Have been reading these threads for weeks and maybe I am off base but I think it would have originated from one source. I base this on buying clams from only one supplier and I know that they have not has a problem and I house my clams for at least 7-10 days before shipping and have not experienced any such loses. If these infected clams came from one source and this source had the infection already in the tank, would it be fair to say that all healthy clams would also be infected and then distributing them to other locations and then it becomes a chain reaction. I have heard so much about treating this bacteria infection but really haven't heard much about the source. We can treat the problem but nothing says that it will not continue until the source has done something to stop it.
I was reading something yesterday about whitespot disease which sometimes can be very hard to see. If there are a few clams in a tank that has this and then introducing new specimens that have a reduced immune system due to transportation and or environment changes could then could fall victim to the infection as well. This could contribute a epidemic spread.
I think I would have to eliminate the oversea sources as I am of the understanding that one oversea suppler does in most cases supply more than one importer. Any thought on this?
Barry
Charles,
I would agree with you regarding the negative reaction to UV. However all my sps colonies were always fuzzballs at night. I first noticed this lack of polyp extension at night. one colony at a time, not all at once. Out of 50 colonies 48 are affected at this time.
Scott
I would agree with you regarding the negative reaction to UV. However all my sps colonies were always fuzzballs at night. I first noticed this lack of polyp extension at night. one colony at a time, not all at once. Out of 50 colonies 48 are affected at this time.
Scott
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
Saltkreep,
You can try dipping one of your sps corals with the lugols dip procedure I posted earlier. If the coral begins to extend its polyps more normally within the dip container, there may be some irritating microorganism wihin your reef.
Toptank,
My experience in June of this year was with Ponape clams. However, I am not sure that similar problems could not show up with other clams. As you know things get mixed up a bit within the distribution chain. Also, here is a relavent excerpt from the Bible of captive clams "Giant Clams" by Daniel Knop.
'Bacterial Damage to Juvenile Clams. Signs: Destruction of the Mantle, Sudden Death. Bacteria of the Vibrio, Xeromonas and Plesoimonas group. These bacteria fluorish in hatcheries if water hygiene is lacking or in case of over feeding. Especially dead clams are an excellent breeding ground for them and must be removed immediately, otherwise healthy animals may be infected.'
So if any dieing clam is allowed to remain within a reef containing other clams, a Vibrio or Xeromonas or Plesoimonas bacteria can then proliferate on the decaying tissue and infect otherwise healthy clams. So you need to remove and isolate any clams that show mantle retraction very quickly. Clams normally retract at night but should extend during the day. However, in my recent case I was very quick at removing retracting clams and still could not stop a meltdown of my associates clams. If it is a new disease it is very virulent. I am also not 100 % positive that this particular disease remains within reefs without clams. Its difficult to determine that since you need to eventually test it with other clams that could potentially still have the problem. We were never 100 % positive where the 1996 SPS RTN pathogen came from. We were only about 90 % certain.
You can try dipping one of your sps corals with the lugols dip procedure I posted earlier. If the coral begins to extend its polyps more normally within the dip container, there may be some irritating microorganism wihin your reef.
Toptank,
My experience in June of this year was with Ponape clams. However, I am not sure that similar problems could not show up with other clams. As you know things get mixed up a bit within the distribution chain. Also, here is a relavent excerpt from the Bible of captive clams "Giant Clams" by Daniel Knop.
'Bacterial Damage to Juvenile Clams. Signs: Destruction of the Mantle, Sudden Death. Bacteria of the Vibrio, Xeromonas and Plesoimonas group. These bacteria fluorish in hatcheries if water hygiene is lacking or in case of over feeding. Especially dead clams are an excellent breeding ground for them and must be removed immediately, otherwise healthy animals may be infected.'
So if any dieing clam is allowed to remain within a reef containing other clams, a Vibrio or Xeromonas or Plesoimonas bacteria can then proliferate on the decaying tissue and infect otherwise healthy clams. So you need to remove and isolate any clams that show mantle retraction very quickly. Clams normally retract at night but should extend during the day. However, in my recent case I was very quick at removing retracting clams and still could not stop a meltdown of my associates clams. If it is a new disease it is very virulent. I am also not 100 % positive that this particular disease remains within reefs without clams. Its difficult to determine that since you need to eventually test it with other clams that could potentially still have the problem. We were never 100 % positive where the 1996 SPS RTN pathogen came from. We were only about 90 % certain.
