This was an eye opener - cont.

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Thank god a world deal isn't being reached on climate change. To drastically change people's lives and impact employment rates based on a science that is still be debating is irresponsible. C02 has not been shown to unequivocally cause global warming. Besides, humans are only responsible for 3% of the carbon in the atmosphere.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15746811#post15746811 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rossini
It's that attitude from you and a large portion (not all though) of your countrymen that is stopping a world deal to tackle this huge problem taking place before it becomes a catastrophe. So give yourselfs a pat on the back. You are winning. You're completley nuts, but sadly you are winning.

If you actually believe all that hype about how were all going to die from the impending global climate catastrophe, you are the one who's completely nuts. Buying into what the media is selling you in order for you to fork over more of your money to "save the planet" is exactly what P.T. Barnum meant when he said a sucker is born every minute.
 
To the nay-sayers of modern prevailing climate change science: maybe your time would be better spent claiming you've been getting abducted by aliens, seriously.

The very idea that any random citizen on an obscure aquarium bulletin board is somehow more qualified to make judgments on climate science than the entire international scientific community over the past 100 years is a bit silly imho. I'll trust the 1000s of climate scientists backing the UN IPCC reports over a fish geek who spends all their time sniffing skimmate anyday.

Rest assured there are many qualified minds at work on these problems and there is a large international consensus among those qualified minds, to say the least. So maybe the fish hobbyists stick to sniffing skimmers and we'll leave the climate science to the qualified climate science community, eh?

But for the sake of logical argument, lets look at what we DO know, no matter who you are.

This deals with pobablility, so hold onto your hats! :p

When it comes to climate science(and any science that potentially threatens life or is irreversible) there is a clear logic that so many seem to miss completely. And it's basic common sense.

Think about it. There are only so many options:

The threat is real - and you act to avoid it: might avoid disaster
The threat is real - and you ignore it: cannot avoid disaster

The threat is not real - and you act to avoid it: avoid disaster
The threat is not real - and you ignore it: avoid disaster

So obviously, the smart thing to do is to play it safe and assume the threat is real, otherwise if you're wrong you're screwed. There's actually an academic term for this logic, but it escapes me atm.

But for anyone calling 'bogus' on the international scientific consensus (UN IPCC) or otherwise claiming they know more than the best scientists of the past 100 years, the smart thing to do is to still assume the threat is real, period. We'd be idiots to assume otherwise.

" The surest sign that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is the fact that it has not tried to contact us." - Calvin & Hobbes
 
You're little logic box arguement is way too simplified. Doing something just in case there might be a potential catastrophe would be a bad thing for the people if the action we were to take would be what the various governments are suggesting. Man made GW proponents want to stop progress in order to stave off a potential disaster of that which we do not know enough of to validate such quality of life changes. The IPCC is a political organization put together by another corrupt, political organization. There are plenty of scientists who disagree with the IPCC's reports. Even when I'm high from sniffing skimmate all day I can still see that. There is way too much money involved in all this too not ask questions about what leaders are trying to shove down our throats. Everything in this world will kills us, according to the media, unless immediate action is taken.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15747679#post15747679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rossini
Maybe it has certain properties. But it is still a fossil fuel, which releases co2 when burnt and all sorts of other crap,some cancer causing.

You cling to these crazy ideas though, it seems it's a common thing to do.....

Yes, it is still a fossil fuel, but it is possible that the cloud nuceation at least partially offsets the CO2 emmisions in the overall greenhouse warming balance. I have no idea about the degree of this offset though.

Its not an "idea" there is some scientific study of this sort of thing. Real experiments.

What would you propose to solve the global warming while maintaining the world's energy supply? Getting rid of SUVs and cursing at Americans isn't going to be enough...:D

Scott
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15748229#post15748229 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefBuddha

The very idea that any random citizen on an obscure aquarium bulletin board is somehow more qualified to make judgments on climate science than the entire international scientific community over the past 100 years is a bit silly imho. I'll trust the 1000s of climate scientists backing the UN IPCC reports over a fish geek who spends all their time sniffing skimmate anyday.

Rest assured there are many qualified minds at work on these problems and there is a large international consensus among those qualified minds, to say the least. So maybe the fish hobbyists stick to sniffing skimmers and we'll leave the climate science to the qualified climate science community, eh?

I find this way of thinking kind of disturbing. It removes the responsibility of having to learn, understand, educate, act, etc. from yourself. Why should you have to think critically about anything in this world if someone else will do it for you? The answer to that question is that if you don't think critically about everything in life, you will eventually get duped by someone.

I don't think I am more qualified than the climatologists, but that doesn't mean I can't read and learn in order to arrive at my own conclusions no matter what they may be.

Another reason to be involved on an intellectual level with climate change is that the only way to change things is if EVERYONE contributes to solving the problem by actions such as improving household efficiency, driving more efficiently, etc. and by examining the problem and developing new concepts on how to solve the problem. You'll have a hard time contributing if you can't understand the topic.

Scott
 
x2 scooter.

Although, I partially disagree with diesel being a "fossil fuel". More and more, you are seeing bio-diesel becoming a reality. They are actually going to build a bio-diesel facility in the county where I live.

As for reefing, I grow my own phytoplankton. Phytoplankton is one of the more promising sources of bio-diesel (yeah, I know, it's a very weak link)
 
I see what you're saying Scott, but those that claim to disagree with the UN IPCC reports here have nothing that qualifies them to do so.

The bottom line is: leave it to qualified minds, or wait until you're an internationally recognized climatologist on the UN IPCC in order to prove you're qualified to disagree with the international climate science community.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but the assumption that anyone can easily be informed enough to argue with the best minds in the world on a subject like this seems a bit naive. An educated person in this scenario would quickly admit that they are far from qualified to argue with the best climate science minds the world has to offer over the past 100 years.

Do any of you seriously think you're going to uncover illuminating and game-changing facts on climate science - here - that the UN IPCC missed over the past 100 years?! really.....cmon.
 
Yea, that is mostly true. They produce biodiesel by an transesterification reaction between methanol (and sometimes ethanol) and vegetable oils. The methanol is mostly produced from natural gas, so there is still a tiny part of biodiesel that is derived from fossil fuels. Thats is getting a little picky though.

I try to buy B20 whenever I go by the Southern States Co-op that sells it. I visited a small biodiesel plant in VA once. It was pretty interesting.

Scott
 
Dingo44,

Great comment - "You're little logic box arguement is way too simplified. Doing something just in case there might be a potential catastrophe would be a bad thing "

An example:
1 - We are POSITIVE that the Earth has been hit with Extinction Level Event (ELE) Asteroids/comets in the past.

2 - We are POSITIVE that it will happen again ( tomorrow, 100 years from now, we dont know )

2 - We HAVE the capability & Infrastructure to DO SOMETHING if one were to be heading our way again ( assuming we detected it in time)

3 - There is essentially NO Effort to develop the technology NOW to stop such a ELE ( HINT: We CANNOT build 2 radically modified space shuttles to plant a nuke on one in less than 3 months.... ;-)


So using the alarmist climate change theorists logic.... WE SHOULD BE BUILDING the infrastructure to stop such an event NOW even if it costs trillions of dollars!

I feel the asteroid impact threat is MUCH greater than the Human Induced Climate change problem.



I'm sorry, but I must re-post this every few pages so people get the concept: "Antarctica used to be a RAINFOREST!"

The Earth has been in MUCH warmer periods than we are in now.
We are recovering from a COLD period!
As far as I can tell, life went on even though it was warmer.

Some people consider the warming due to humans to be "un-natural" well, the transition from a nitrogen/CO2 atmosphere to a Oxygen/Nitrogen/CO2 atmosphere was definitely natural and NOT caused by humans... was that UN_natural even though it caused MASSIVE changes in our eco-system?

I totally agree that we must curtail excessive emissions & INTENTIONAL destruction of the environment ( clear cutting of rain-forests ).

However, Humans have been MONITORING the environment with equipment calibrated enough to measure the changes we have seen in the environment for less than 100 years!

Who are we to say what that minuscule amount of data means in the grand scheme of things?

Stu
 
face|palm

well... let us know if you naysayers find anything else on wikipedia that the international climate scientific community overlooked while doing their extensive research over the past several decades... I'm sure the 1000s of members of the IPCC will be eager to hear your well-informed thoughts. /sarc
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15748671#post15748671 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefBuddha
I see what you're saying Scott, but those that claim to disagree with the UN IPCC reports here have nothing that qualifies them to do so.

The bottom line is: leave it to qualified minds, or wait until you're an internationally recognized climatologist on the UN IPCC in order to prove you're qualified to disagree with the international climate science community.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but the assumption that anyone can easily be informed enough to argue with the best minds in the world on a subject like this seems a bit naive. An educated person in this scenario would quickly admit that they are far from qualified to argue with the best climate science minds the world has to offer over the past 100 years.

Do any of you seriously think you're going to uncover illuminating and game-changing facts on climate science - here - that the UN IPCC missed over the past 100 years?! really.....cmon.

I really don't understnd that kind of logic. There are internationally recognized climatologists that do disagree with many of the assertions of global warming proponents. Everytime someone has brought up these valid voices of dissention, others dismiss them because they aren't the IPCC.

I am not a climatologist, but I am a scientist. I do perform alot of modeling at work. I'm not on the IPCC, but I know enough about modeling to be able to point out some of the flaws in the climate modeling that is being performed. Anyone can inform themselves adequately to talk intelligently about climate science if they care to educate themselves. For instance, if you want to know more about the climate models being used, the source code for the GISS climate models is freely available on the NASA website.

What I said wasn't necessarily referring to "game-changing" revelations on climate science. I was mainly referring to all the little tiny advances that contribute to the overall greater effort.

It never ceases to amaze me that at any point in history the vast majority of people believe that everthing that is "known" is actually totally correct. This amazes me because time after time we find that we didn't really understand something that we thought we did.

Scott
 
ReefBuddha,

"over a fish geek who spends all their time sniffing skimmate anyday"

"well... let us know if you naysayers find anything else on wikipedia"

Sorry BUT I calibrate the orbiting scientific instruments for a living, I dont get my info from Wikipedia.
I could tell you all about it, but I would violate Proprietary & ITAR regulations to do so.

The TRUTH is that we have only BEGUN to monitor the environment with the accuracy that we have today.
To claim that we have discovered a massive new "trend" is explainable because we have just started looking.

I know some trust the climate models but from what I know even the source data is not 100% trustworthy.

They are spending BILLIONS to make the next generation of weather satellites and most of the money is to have "Data Continuity" and they are learning how hard that is...


Stu
 
I'm not insinuating for one second that all is known, or that science should not be challenged....The scientific method - as you all know - inherently requires critical analysis and peer review in order to solidify hypotheses into theories and laws of nature.

I'm just saying the IPCC is a vastly more reliable source of what is and isn't legitimate climate science, and has much more support behind it and legitimacy than a couple people on an aquarium forum trying to debunk a longstanding consensus.

Lack of complete information or iron-clad data is reality, and always will be so. And as I stated before, real or not, the lack of information doesn not negate the sensable course of action, which is to prepare for what is probable regardless of incomplete data. If you're wrong, you can;t go back. so playing it 'safe' is the only logical course.... so if the IPCC's claims are 80%, 60%, I'd argue even 30% probable.... then it makes sense to prepare for the worst. This is not grounded in complicated science, but statistical common sense.

Even simpler, and definitely understandable by anyone with an aquarium:
The earth is of course, a closed system like your tank. It only has so much filtration capacity, and if your waste input into that system increases beyond the 'cleaning' capacity of that system, eventually all life will perish.

So....choose your angle....climate science, statistical probability, or plain reefkeeping common sense. Regardless, I'm not sure why anyone would argue against a conservative approach to avoiding a worst case scenario when we clearly have a large majority of the qualified community encouraging it...

Now I'll humbly apologize if I came across as abrasive and return to something a bit more worthy of debate in this forum...like skimmer design/efficiency!

Wanna debate climate science? Try it here: http://www.realclimate.org/ and then post links here to your discussions.
 
ReefBuddha,

Very nicely put.

And I believe almost all of the frequent visitors of this thread would agree that moving towards renewable energy & curtailing waste & the destruction of the environment is a good thing.

We all just differ on how big of a "threat" Climate change is and how we react to the change.

Stu
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15748071#post15748071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dingo44
Thank god a world deal isn't being reached on climate change. To drastically change people's lives and impact employment rates based on a science that is still be debating is irresponsible. C02 has not been shown to unequivocally cause global warming. Besides, humans are only responsible for 3% of the carbon in the atmosphere.

The debate over whether the atmospheric co2 increase caused by humans is warming the planet is well and trueley over. I really dont know what you have been reading to think anything different?

The severity of the effects of this warming is still up for debate, but not the cause.

Regarding the 3% figure. It's really not that simple.

Please read some science.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11638


http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...ncreases-are-due-to-human-activities-updated/
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15749800#post15749800 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefBuddha
face|palm

well... let us know if you naysayers find anything else on wikipedia that the international climate scientific community overlooked while doing their extensive research over the past several decades... I'm sure the 1000s of members of the IPCC will be eager to hear your well-informed thoughts. /sarc

These guys are nut jobs. They are beyond reason. They really do think they are doing the right thing by burying their heads in the sand when it comes to scientific evidence. I feel sorry for their kids, I really do.

Great posts by the way. It is so refreshing to see sane people posting on a climate change thread.
 
Ironically, writing models has kept me from addressing modeling for the past few weeks.

First, the model are being validated against a VERY short period of anthropogenic warming (i.e. the last 50-100 years). I fail to see how they can produce a reliable validation based upon data from such a short period time. Validation against non-anthropogenic climate changes (i.e. the reconstructions) doesn't really bear much significance when the processes relating to anthropogenic climate change differ from those relating to non-anthropogenic climate change.
There's a lot more to validation than just comparing R values. A big part of it is matching emergent patterns to real life processes. Do you get deserts and snowfall where they should be? Do you have upwelling zones, circulation cells, and convergence zones where they should be? Do you get realistic weather fronts and seasonality? Do you have a realistic troposphere and stratosphere with appropriate temperature trends? Do you get the right biomes in the right places? These things aren't explicit in the models. If you get the governing processes largely right, then emergent patterns should be fairly close to reality AND the data series produced should match observations. If you don't have the relationships right and you're just curve fitting, it's pretty hard to match the emergent patterns.

That is not necessarily true at all. These complex climate processes can and often are non-reversible along the same pathway. Different processes can be encountered going in different direction between two points. The pathway in one direction is not always the same as the pathway in the opposite direction.
Yes, and it doesn't matter because you define the relationship between parameters, not the process to get there.

For the example of oceanic CO2, you define the relationship between CO2, temp and pressure. If you change temperature or CO2, the other parameters change accordingly regardless of which variable you change. Then a separate sub-model takes the output from that model and calculates temperature based on forcings present, which includes CO2. Another separate sub-model modifies the growth rate of the biology based on the output of those models. The output of each sub-model becomes the input for the other models on the next iteration.

Mathematically, (if it was just those 3 sub-models) it would be something like:

x= f(y,z)
y= f(x,z)
z= f(x,y)

It's nothing more than a coupled model with lots of parameters. They exhibit hysteresis naturally, especially as you add more parameters. Even simple, single-line models (e.g. rN+[1-(K/N)]-aN) will produce path dependent outcomes.

How do you make a direct observation of all of the processes that play a role in climate change? You can't. They are forced to make assumptions and estimations due to a lack of data. If they had all the data they needed, they wouldn't have to make assumptions and estimations. Due to this lack of data, these assumptions are "justified" by logic rather than direct observation.
You don't need to make direct measurements of every parameter to justify them.

You can derive the value of some parameters based on the values of others. If you were using the formula above to create a population model in the real world, you can't go out and directly measure "r" or "K." You derive them by measuring N.

You can also use sensitivity analysis, and yes, logic, to constrain values that you don't have values for (or have questionable measurement of). If for example, you wanted to know the sensitivity to doubling in CO2, you can't go out and measure it directly. You would use lab experiments and radiative physics to give you a logical range of values. That was actually some of the first work done on global warming, about 100 years ago. Then you take that range of values and perform a sensitivity analysis to determine which actually make sense. In the case of doubling CO2, a sensitivity of less than about 3 deg/doubling doesn't give you an Earth-like climate either in the observational or historical era.

You also do sensitivity analyses on known values to see how much difference measurement errors make.

In my experience, most scientists are skeptical of the reliability of models, as they should be.
Most scientists are skeptical of EVERYTHING since that's what science entails. But skepticism does not equate to rejection out-of-hand. Even modelers have the saying that all models are wrong, but some models are useful.

An experiment, by nature, MUST have a basis in physical reality, whereas modeling does not have to fulfill this requirement. I think most (good) scientists see modeling as a tool to be used in the exploration of the interactions going on within complex systems, but not as some kind of experiment. Experiments, again by nature, are able to confirm or refute a hypothesis. Models have no ability to do this.
An experiment is a test of a hypothesis- nothing more, nothing less. There is no requirement for a lab experiment to be based in physical reality any more than any useful model has to be. The Miller-Urey experiment comes to mind. We know the experimental conditions were unrealistic, but they still provided a test of the hypothesis that you can spontaneously create complex organic molecules from simple ingredients. You can put unrealistic input into models too, but in order for the model to tell you anything about the system, the structure of the model has to be based in reality. If it's not based in reality then it doesn't tell you about anything about the system you're trying to model.

Not every science has the luxury of studying systems that we can set up on the lab bench or run repeated tests on. When you can't do that you use a model to test your hypothesis. The fact that there are statistical tests like AIC designed to tell you which hypothesis is best supported by a model argues against the point that models aren't used to test hypotheses.

As a chemist, I would say that I do not consider them a fundamental part of chemistry.
Kinetics, bonding affinities and orientations, electron locations- all things I learned in fundamentals of chemistry back in high school. They're all models, even if you don't call them that.

In biochem, things like protein folding, enzyme activity, DNA replication- all based on models and often predicted by computer simulations.
 
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