Time to Nuke it....

JammyBirch

JammyBirch

Aquaria Engineering
I have a 25 gallon cube, with ~20lbs of dry rock, live sand and a 10 gallon sump complete with refugium. I added ~4lbs of cured live rock and have been measuring for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. This all went down 2 weeks ago, so far nothing...

Ammonia is very low if any, nitrite has been obviously zero since the beginning and nitrate is very low if any.

Going to add some shrimp tonight, to see if i can get some ammonia in the tank and monitor the cycle correctly. Right now i'm blind, other than Diatom bloom there is nothing giong on in there at all...

Any advice or comments welcome.
 
It will save you a few days if you use pure ammonia to start the cycle, but shrimp will work. Use pure ammonia without surfactants (available at most hardware stores). To be sure the ammonia does not contain surfactants shake the bottle and if it bubbles up like dish soap it has surfactants in it, pure ammonia will not have bubbles. To raise 100 gallons of water from 0 to 2 ppm ammonia you would need to add 0.8 grams (8 ml) of standard 10% pure ammonia, so for your tank 0.2 grams (2 ml) of 10% pure ammnia should get you in the 2ppm range.
 
You wont have a spike in ammonia if there was no die off on the rock. Was the live rock purchased at a local fish store and kept wet. If so there would be no cycle because the rock is already cured. It will take time for the bacteria to build up on the other rock. You can add the shrimp to speed up the process or you could just add pure ammonia. I prefer adding pure ammonia because I can measure exact amounts but its up to you.

If you have nitrate the bio filter is definitely building because that is the end of the nitrogen cycle.
 
thegrun, i will be stoping at the local hardware store tonight and looking for pure ammonia, i have seen the info you posted on other threads as well.

Man this cycle thing is counter intuative and requires the most patience right when you're excited about the start of the tank...drives me nuts.

Yes the rock i bought was cured, from a LFS that runs a very clean ship...this rock is unbelievable.

How long are we talking before ammonia shows up with the use of shrimp? I know what you mean about control of the amount, you can add the exact ammount to build 2-3ppm and stop. Even if i got more ammonia than that, in there the bacteria would still do the job it would just take longer...

What i'm most confused about it the Diatom bloom, i know they are caused by high silica levels, but i thought it was an indication of the cycle, the beginning of the end even... I don't understand this part of it at all.

Thanks for the replies i'll look for the ammonia if i can't find it then shrimp it is.
 
No, diatoms don't necessarily even appear. A mostly-dry-rock tank can take up to 12 weeks to set up. But it will happen. There's a lot you can do to entertain yourself, like research: our SETTING UP sticky is a real good read for gathering information: memorize the facts therein, and you'll enter this hobby like a pro, full of knowledge of things you haven't met yet. Watch your salinity: a refractometer will help, but at this stage having a freshwater 'fill line' is enough. Don't let evaporation inch the salinity up to Dead Sea levels. Keep it as oceanlike as possible. Actual decent parameters are in my sig line.
 
looking around online at Ammonia, surfactant free is not really advertised. What is advertised is clear ammonia, some of it is rated 4% or 10% ammonia. Is that the stuff? thats all i'm seeing anyway.
 
Sk8r said:
No, diatoms don't necessarily even appear. A mostly-dry-rock tank can take up to 12 weeks to set up. But it will happen. There's a lot you can do to entertain yourself, like research: our SETTING UP sticky is a real good read for gathering information: memorize the facts therein, and you'll enter this hobby like a pro, full of knowledge of things you haven't met yet. Watch your salinity: a refractometer will help, but at this stage having a freshwater 'fill line' is enough. Don't let evaporation inch the salinity up to Dead Sea levels. Keep it as oceanlike as possible. Actual decent parameters are in my sig line.
Click to expand...

I am all over it, i have an ATO unit already installed. I have been reading the start up guide, but didn't think a dry rock tank would take so long.

I'm pretty confused about Alkalinity too, why isn't it the same thing as pH? I guess that's another topic...
 
The only place I could find surfactant free ammonia in the Cincy area was ACE Hardware. If you have them in your neck of PA look for an ACE branded "Ammonia Janitorial Strength Formula" bottle in the cleaning isle. The bottle I found is 10% and I used 6ml for my 55g with 50# dry rock to reach 3ppm. With that much rock you probably only need 2-2.5ml if 3ppm is your target. Good Luck!
 
thegrun said:
It will save you a few days if you use pure ammonia to start the cycle, but shrimp will work. Use pure ammonia without surfactants (available at most hardware stores). To be sure the ammonia does not contain surfactants shake the bottle and if it bubbles up like dish soap it has surfactants in it, pure ammonia will not have bubbles. To raise 100 gallons of water from 0 to 2 ppm ammonia you would need to add 0.8 grams (8 ml) of standard 10% pure ammonia, so for your tank 0.2 grams (2 ml) of 10% pure ammnia should get you in the 2ppm range.
Click to expand...


Household ammonia that are commercially available are usually aqueous salt solutions such as NH4OH or NH4Cl. The % varies, usually between 5-10% (e.g. ACE janitorial strength is 10% NH4OH w/v in water as discussed above). When you calculated the volume of 10% ammonia (weight/vol) needed, is that with the assumption that the solution is in fact 10% NH4+ weight/vol, or do you need to correct for the actual mass of ammonium in whatever salt was used (e.g. 10% ammonium hydroxide w/v as per ACE janitorial strength)?
 
Shrimped it up...ammonia would have been easy but I'd have a jug of it sitting around for my daughter to find. The shrimp will do it, oh-natural.

Can't wait to get some reading...the fam wants this going as bad as me. Don't get me wrong I know this takes patience and I am but I've been measuring for 2 weeks with nothing.
 
Ok update time. I added the shrimp three days ago, my ammonia levels are still very low, 0.5ppm range. Still 0 on the nitrite front... What gives?

On a side note I ordered the Dr. Tim's ammonia chloride bottle, just so I could test the nitrogen processing capabilities post cycle. Bump it 2-3ppm and see how it responds...

Anyway, is this typical to have low levels with no nitrite? Let me know, I have shut the skimmer off for this by the way.
 
Give it a few more days. The shrimp must decompose, before you get a good reading. Then, your family will really want it gone (dead shrimp smell). Lol
 
JammyBirch said:
Ok update time. I added the shrimp three days ago, my ammonia levels are still very low, 0.5ppm range. Still 0 on the nitrite front... What gives?



On a side note I ordered the Dr. Tim's ammonia chloride bottle, just so I could test the nitrogen processing capabilities post cycle. Bump it 2-3ppm and see how it responds...



Anyway, is this typical to have low levels with no nitrite? Let me know, I have shut the skimmer off for this by the way.
Click to expand...


Be aware of whether you are measuring free ammonia or total ammonia nitrogen.
 
Ammonia exists in a free form (ammonia) and an ionized form (ammonium). Total ammonia is the sum of free and ionized forms. The balance between free ammonia and ammonium depends on, for simplicity, your pH and water temp. The ranges of temp and pH I've seen people reported here, I would estimate the free ammonia makes up about 15-20% of your total ammonia. It's a very rough estimate.

For cycling, ammonia-oxidizing archaea and bacteria in water will grow in at 0.5ppm, and if you have other organic material on your live rock (live or dead...living things make waste too) that would be sufficient. Be patient and take the time to brush up on your reading.

Free ammonia is the toxic moiety of total ammonia, so this becomes more important to know when you are testing "ammonia levels" in the future. Some tests report free ammonia levels, some will have tests for both free and total ammonia, and some tests will report total ammonia levels only.

Thus, when you say your ammonia is 0.5ppm, you could be telling us you have 0.5ppm total ammonia, or you could be telling us your free ammonia is 0.5 (and an approximately 2-3ppm total ammonia). Precision is a wonderful thing.

Some people (rightly or wrongly) repeat the idea that at a certain level "stalls your cycle". It is unclear what these individuals mean. Do they mean inhibition of growth (archaea or bacteria?) or inhibition of nitrification (nitritation or nitratation?)? The recurring theme of imprecision...

There is some evidence that nitritation (conversion of ammonia to nitrites) can start to become inhibited with a free ammonia around 1ppm (Don't worry, you are nowhere near there) but the inhibition is quite low and likely insignificant to you as a hobbyist. I would recommend reading up on some background info, preferably the primary literature if you are inclined. Cycling takes time. Stop messing with your tank. Leave well enough alone.

Oh, and take out that nasty shrimp, unless the aesthetic (and odor) of necrotizing flesh is your thing.
 
The test kits do not specify free ammonia or total so we are left to guess, I guess. The API kit that I'm using tests for NH3/NH4+ I assume that means total.
 
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