shane 1111
Premium Member
they are in the same family. your comparison about cat and dog has nothing to do with clowns. cat and dogs aren't the same family.maddyfish said:
your not breeding a clown with a goby. that would be questionable.
Tomatoe/Ocellaris breeding!
- Thread starter cb747
- Start date
your not breeding a clown with a goby. that would be questionable.
Dwarfpufferfish
New member
I dont get your arguement maddyfish! Are you say all dogs that are not purebreed animals should be put down? I am really just having a hard time understand what is so bad with 2 clowns mating?
tigerarmy40
New member
this guy sounds so high and mighty about whats right bt yet he can say put them down like thats right!?
Qwiv
Persistant Perspective
maddyfish:
You comments is valid with the misunderstanding of classifying animals. The system we used today started as defining a species as a group of animals that can produce offspring. This worked great for terestrial animals with only a few excemptons. when science turned to classifying plants, marine creatures, bacteria this rule no longer worked and is not how these animals are classified. There are naturally occuring clownfish species that are a natural cross breed. With the exception of the Maroon clowns, the difference between clowns in about the same as the difference between human races. If we took the new approach of classification and reevaluated humans, there is a good chance we would classify races as different species. I think everyone could see why this would be a bad idea.
You comments is valid with the misunderstanding of classifying animals. The system we used today started as defining a species as a group of animals that can produce offspring. This worked great for terestrial animals with only a few excemptons. when science turned to classifying plants, marine creatures, bacteria this rule no longer worked and is not how these animals are classified. There are naturally occuring clownfish species that are a natural cross breed. With the exception of the Maroon clowns, the difference between clowns in about the same as the difference between human races. If we took the new approach of classification and reevaluated humans, there is a good chance we would classify races as different species. I think everyone could see why this would be a bad idea.
shane 1111
Premium Member
quote:
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Originally posted by maddyfish
The proper course of action would be to put these creatures down...
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that is wrong.
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Originally posted by maddyfish
The proper course of action would be to put these creatures down...
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that is wrong.
cb747
Active member
Here is some crummy pics. Ill take some better pics over the weeeknd. heres 2 pics from the first batch
Heres a pic of the second.
The third and fourth batches arent doing so well. I probably have 10 between the 2 of them due to my own misdoings. I need to get my system going which i hope to accomplish this weekend.
Chris
Heres a pic of the second.
The third and fourth batches arent doing so well. I probably have 10 between the 2 of them due to my own misdoings. I need to get my system going which i hope to accomplish this weekend.
Chris
tigerarmy40
New member
so this is probably an easily answered Q but wy cant you use live rock in a tank once the fish are about a week or so old?
Qwiv
Persistant Perspective
tigerarmy40:
First, they have to metamorph which is very stressfull. Then they need to live in a tank that they cannot hide from you for cleaning. What if a few fish die and get lost in the liverock, they could take down the whole brood. They are also dumb and will get lost in the liverock. You can't even add a sponge filter until they are bigger than the holes in the sponge. They will get lost in little holes in the silicon holding the tank together.
First, they have to metamorph which is very stressfull. Then they need to live in a tank that they cannot hide from you for cleaning. What if a few fish die and get lost in the liverock, they could take down the whole brood. They are also dumb and will get lost in the liverock. You can't even add a sponge filter until they are bigger than the holes in the sponge. They will get lost in little holes in the silicon holding the tank together.
tigerarmy40
New member
wow thats crazy! I guess it makes sense...... I havent a clue when it comes to raising frye so Im guessing you cant have any type of filtration for the fisrt month or so and thats why all the water changes are crucia!?
Carman34L
In Memoriam
maddyfish your ruining everything...... This thread was going so good until your ethical propaganda B S. There is nothing wrong with this what so ever. the only problem with this is that the fry may be sterile. And in if that is the case, you would still have a good story everytime some asked about the fish.
Anyways, I think these fry are going to be just fine, I am no genetisist, but i think that Black Perculas were geneticly engineered by humans, and I know Koi are Human engineered karp done buy the japanese hundreds of years ago, buy selective breeding, so this has been going on for hundreds of years, and the sky has not fallen yet, so keep waring your sunscreen and helmet, but I think everything will be ok.
Anyways, I think these fry are going to be just fine, I am no genetisist, but i think that Black Perculas were geneticly engineered by humans, and I know Koi are Human engineered karp done buy the japanese hundreds of years ago, buy selective breeding, so this has been going on for hundreds of years, and the sky has not fallen yet, so keep waring your sunscreen and helmet, but I think everything will be ok.
Thanks guys and gals.
Atticus
New member
Just to clear up one rumor... There is no such thing as a black percula and currently the only human caused clownfish species crosses are the one in this thread, maroon/ ocellaris, and percula/ ocellaris. Black Ocellaris are a naturally occuring color variant not a human science experiment. One othert thing to keep in mind is the time involved to make a clownfish cross. You are looking at 12 months to get the parents to breed, F1 will not be ready for 12 months from that date, f2 12 more months. Not very likely we will see clowns turn into show guppies any time soon.... 
TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
Maddyfish, I'm with the others on this, I don't see why crossbred clownfish are a problem. I do think there can be ethical dilemmas with interspecific hybridization. However, I don't think any of those hold true here.
Reasons why interspecific hybrids are a bad idea include;
1) Rare species where all specimans left should be use to continue the species.
2) non-naturally occuring hybrids that could potentially be released into the wild and have unforeseen consequences.
3) Hybrids where the resulting offspring are deformed.
I'm sure there are more reasons, but I don't see how they apply to captive clownfish. They're not going to go back to the wild, and their lines are stable. No outward deformities have been discovered in crosses, unlike the hybrids of some species (freshwater parrotfish come to mind).
Most of these clownfish are captivebred for several generations, especially your standard ocellaris. They are already genetically different from their wild counterparts. Whether intentional or not, when you breed a species in captivity, you change it. Those that can not survive in captivity, die, those that are better suited, survive and breed. The divergent point for why some survive in captivity and some don't might be where the characteristics that would allow them to survive in the wild are a disadvantage. In that sense, if a hybrid clownfish and a "true" species are still only suited for captivity, why shouldn't hybrids be allowed?
Another reason not to worry about hybrids is the fact that species is an artificial human concept. Even among scientists, the definition of a species is often not agreed upon. And with the ability to map genomes, the definition will probably continue to change. But fish do not see species. They see animals that they are interested in breeding with or not. Many times the only thing that keeps different species from breeding is isolation, and dramatic natural environmental changes can result in a new species developing through hybridization.
I would say its not in our best interest to encourage new species/hybrids in the wild, but in out home aquariums, why not? If they're better suited to captivity, then we've made a step forward FOR the fish. And if not, they will die out just like a naturally occuring hybrid not suited for its environment.
Reasons why interspecific hybrids are a bad idea include;
1) Rare species where all specimans left should be use to continue the species.
2) non-naturally occuring hybrids that could potentially be released into the wild and have unforeseen consequences.
3) Hybrids where the resulting offspring are deformed.
I'm sure there are more reasons, but I don't see how they apply to captive clownfish. They're not going to go back to the wild, and their lines are stable. No outward deformities have been discovered in crosses, unlike the hybrids of some species (freshwater parrotfish come to mind).
Most of these clownfish are captivebred for several generations, especially your standard ocellaris. They are already genetically different from their wild counterparts. Whether intentional or not, when you breed a species in captivity, you change it. Those that can not survive in captivity, die, those that are better suited, survive and breed. The divergent point for why some survive in captivity and some don't might be where the characteristics that would allow them to survive in the wild are a disadvantage. In that sense, if a hybrid clownfish and a "true" species are still only suited for captivity, why shouldn't hybrids be allowed?
Another reason not to worry about hybrids is the fact that species is an artificial human concept. Even among scientists, the definition of a species is often not agreed upon. And with the ability to map genomes, the definition will probably continue to change. But fish do not see species. They see animals that they are interested in breeding with or not. Many times the only thing that keeps different species from breeding is isolation, and dramatic natural environmental changes can result in a new species developing through hybridization.
I would say its not in our best interest to encourage new species/hybrids in the wild, but in out home aquariums, why not? If they're better suited to captivity, then we've made a step forward FOR the fish. And if not, they will die out just like a naturally occuring hybrid not suited for its environment.
