Too much flow?

MrMikeB

New member
Hey all,

I just got my new 150 gal plus 60 gallon sump up and running (phew!). I have all my livestock moved over and things are beginning to settle in. The new system runs an external Iwaki pump that is rated at about 1100 gph. My old system used a mag drive 1800, but surprisingly (to me) the Iwaki pumps ALOT more flow than my old return. That being said, most of my LPS look like they are in an underwater hurricane, even in indirect current. I installed a ball valve to tone it down, but is there such a thing as too much flow? Should I keep it toned down or open it up and allow the corals to 'adjust?' Is there other options to help diffuse the actual impact of the flow, yet retain the GPH flowing through the sump?
 
An LPS/Softie tank likes a gentle flow.....an intermittent stronger current can work well also. It really depends on how much is too much and use your best judgement. I noticed that LPS have more polyp extension and seem "happier" in slower lagoonal like flows.......

A ball valve may not be the best solution to throttling back your flow. I would suggest a "spoiler" or a rereturn to drop off the pressure, (a ball valve that lets some out rather than creating backpressure). Restricting the flow by way of a ball valve can prematurely wear a pump.

Display flow and turnover through the tank are accomplished by two seperate circuits.
 
I must be missing something here. What else besides that return pump do you have causing flow? We need to add it all up to kinda get an idea what your pushin, direct streams on lps can be detrimental but its all relative to how strong and how close it is to the source of the stream.

-Justin
 
lol, get up to go grab something and come back to finish meh sentence.
Ya, what he said!;) Keep forgettin to refresh the page :/

-Justin
 
So far I have the Iwaki on the return, feeding into 2 overflow returns. (pics below). I also have 2x Rios (approx 500 gph) on each side. The returns are pointed at top of the tank rather than at the corals, but as you can see with some of the xenias, there is a bit of current in there. These shots are with the Iwaki cut down via ball valve approx 1/4.

imgp1437_small.jpg


imgp1435_small.jpg


Thanks!
 
Im only coming up with a figure of about 12-15x turnover. Someone please correct me if Im wrong. If this is the case you do not have too much at all. But you may indeed have some high flow spots but youd have to point out where in the tank that is, the picture you posted will make this a lot easier now :) While your talking about that point out which corals look like they may be getting too much.

Doug made a very good point about inhibiting the flow of the pump, will definately push the pump harder with all of the back pressure. Id highly suggest looking into alternatives. Even branching the return into 2-4 spouts may give you what your looking for by distributing it out as opposed to a single solid stream. May even want to consider a SQWD? I think there good for up to 12-1400gph but Id definately check first. Im using one now and it's definately an upgrade from a single return and great for providing sporatic flow.

-Justin
 
I'm not trying to be a contrary, but are you sure inhibiting the output will put excessive wear on the pump? I may be wrong, but I thought I learned when I was researching pumps that it was OK to somewhat crankdown on output without a problem (analagous to head pressure), but you should never inhibit the input side of a return pump.
 
All,

Thank you all for your suggestions and ideas. I am thinking about branching the return off to a 4 total vs 2 current. I think this will keep the turnover and minimize the actual pressure that is blasting my corals around. Although... I did see a couple peppermint shrimp ride the waves (probably against their will) yesterday which was pretty funny. ;)
- No peppermint shrimp were harmed in the making of this thread. -
 
Sherie,

I have heard the same thing as you. I think even MDM Sequence recommends restricting the flow on the output side - but never the input size. BTW - I would never use a ball valve to control flow. Ball valves do not have enough control. Use a gate valve instead.

Minh

PS - I agree with Justin. You really don't have that much flow. You just need to disburse your flow.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9096516#post9096516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H20Sidhe
I'm not trying to be a contrary, but are you sure inhibiting the output will put excessive wear on the pump? I may be wrong, but I thought I learned when I was researching pumps that it was OK to somewhat crankdown on output without a problem (analagous to head pressure), but you should never inhibit the input side of a return pump.
 
My recommendation to not use a valve to control fine tune flow is based on my own design preference.

Can it be done in black in white terms is the same as the question can one keep anenome under PC lighting......sure it can be done, but is it the best choice?

You are correct in that adding a ball valve simulates more head pressure and Minh is even more correct that a gate valve is a better method.

A gate or a ball valve can be used to "fine tune" the flow rate and should be installed in case that the pump needs to be serviced.

The sticky point I have when technical questions are asked is I assume worst case senario as you are assuming best case senario. The worst that would occur gets by blindly following my advice is that he would get some more flow into the sump..........however, based on the facts that he presented, and that I answer questions based only on the information provided solely, and assume worst case senario, if he does follow it, there is not a safety or mechanical failure issue to be worried about.

So lets play this assumption game of design and based on the facts and description of what he said........"most of my LPS look like they are in an underwater hurricane".........even though I know the older pump though rated had probably declined in performance and he was seeing the true rating, or had a large reduction which caused the very same thing we are discussing here is what is going on. Regardless, he was not seeing the true value of his Mag and now he is seeing the full rated flow of the other for the first time.....

Based on the information he gave I am takin into consideration the worst case senario that he bought and installed a pump on a limited circuit and basing my advice on that. In other words flow rate= Area*velocity. I am thinking of the worst case senario and that he may have it ALREADY throttled back due to restrictive piping causing high velocities at the exit which would cause this effect. Giving advice to do it more could cause wear leading to shortened operating life or cavitation causing bubbles which I am sure he would be happy about.

More so, why buy a large, powerful, expensive pump only to throttle it down? It takes energy to overcome that head or "back pressure" your creating.....to overcome that head pressure, pressure must be created from energy that the motor is producing, the by product of mechanical ineficency is heat, we want that pump in it highest effecieny range all the time, that occurs when its not worked to its maximum. When throttled back and the pressure that is created it forces the pump to work harder which creates more heat and reduces the mechanical ineficiency of the pump........and we all know how much people hate pumps that heat up cuz the water sucks it right up. Not too mention heat causes wear...........

I don't know his design and to be quite honest am unsure of it and do not want to give advice as an Engineer where my advice could further worsen incorrect application of the pump......ie: too small area of pipe......he didn't say what size, it would be foolish to assume.

So, based on the WORST case scenario of him having a design that is totally flawed and answering ONLY the question at face value as it is asked, I do not make assumptions that could cause a failure by doing what I suggest.

So based on the initial information based on your advice there is a possibility based on the unknown design factors premature pump failure could be caused by simply working the pump to hard for its optimal operating range.......kinda like going 55mph in first gear in your car.......that works also right? Do you guys drive down the road in first gear at 55mph or do you use the transmission to keep the engine within its operating range?

The main fallacy in your logical reasoning is this: you are assuming the best case scenario, which in all honesty may be true and the odds in your favor..........However, adding a Tee that has a ball valve on the end of it, which I was decribing if I was not clear, will "spoil" off that excessive energy without making the pump work any harder. Furthermore, if the pump/circuit is WAY unmatched there is no worry of creating pressure outside of the optimal operating efficiency range of the pump and the flow is just diverted as if creating another outlet nozzle.

I guess it comes down to a saying that a professor told me.

"A doctor who has a 80% success rate is a miracle worker. However, an Engineer with a 80% success rate is unemployed."


In other words:
You know when people are always worried about the minor losses of the pipes down to the foot lost.........I laugh, most of the time you cant find a pump for that specific need.....say 102gph.....you may find one that does 115gph or 120gph.........the ball valve is what controls that.......if the pump is within 10-15% of the need, then a ball/gate valve is what is needed to control the flow. However, if it is higher than say 10-15% it could cause problems. But at the very least is a poor design and a waste of money. No other design data ie: how much flow he needed or what he wanted his turnover to be.

Its not my place and is rude to critize his design without being asked, therefor I will assume worst case situation so that anything I suggest will not compound the situation and "break the camels back"

I considered all of this in about five seconds and gave my response based on my design preferences and given information. Did you consider the consequences of yours based on that or are we assuming and hoping for the best case scenario?
 
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I think you are on the right track in adding another pair of outlets, and should add a gate valve for fine tuning but won't need it what so ever based on your turnover. It will be there only for servicing the pump and should be wide open because your pump is under rated for your need. But in the future if you get a different pump that is higher rated, you will be ready for it.

I was told, have used, and find very effective a turnover rate of 10x through a sump. Based on your display size and your pump rating a told, your are not even there. I would use that pump as the main filtration circuit only and not worry so much as display flow, so don't worry when you add the other two if the velocity drops and the tank looks stagnet.

To get the correct flow rates in your display you will need to add a quality powerhead for best results........Seios and Tunzes are popular due to the design.......they increase the area and lower the velocity, so your corals don't look like they are in a hurricane but have the flow they need.

If you do not like the looks of powerheads in the display you can always go to a closed loop system with another pump.

In the end I think you should be shooting for 20-30x for an turnover in a LPS tank, SPS tanks are much higher. With the correct outlets and positioning, will in the long term create a healthier, more stable tank. My going to a Barebottom tank, rock work and having 4 gaudy pumps in mine is for the very same reason. Flow is key and takes a lot of time to perfect.

That article I have bookmarked also and is one of the BEST resources I have found that completly explains the basic concepts, vocabulary and calculation. It shows how much there is to consider in pump selection and design. The minor losses chart provided is gold.......I looked for hours once trying to find all that information and this was the only place with all the correct fitting and sizes......everyone should reference this one........
 
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