Topic of Discussion

[matttaylor]

The point of this thread is for an open and honest discussion, it is not meant to offend or target anyone. I just want this to be informative. Lets not get out of line as this could be a great discussion on the current state of the hobby.

OK, so i've been in this hobby for over 15 years now, and in this time i've seen many changes, some good, some bad. My last reef tank was running from 2000 until December 2005. My new reef has been up since July 2006.

That being said, how did this hobby go from sps, lps, softies, zoos being $10 to $50 for a colony (average) to ridiculously expensive frags. I mean i've seen some people pay $80 for a 1" softie frag, $50 per zoo, $100 for a 1/2" blue tort. I understand the whole captive propagation idea, save the planet and what not. But by the time the 8th person down the line (frag to colony, frag to colony, etc.) has picked up a frag of something how can this still be so expensive? Obviously the coral has become domesticated and more than likely has managed to thrive in numerous tanks. So why the ridiculously high prices? In addition, why do shops now sell only frags and an occasional colony?

I just don't understand how someone could by a frag for say $50, grow it out to a full blown colony, and then sell 1" frags for $50 each. Sure, make money for yourself, but that initial 2" frag you bought has now enabled you to sell many frags. You could sell them for $10 each, and still make a profit. It's not like you're selling the whole piece, you'll be fragging until you die this way.

I believe in selling for less than i paid initially and selling multiple frags to eventually recover the costs. I also believe in helping fund my "habit" by selling or trading frags. When i do sell something it's because the buyer either doesn't have anything i want, or i just need a little cash to get by. Honestly, i'd rather trade a frag for something i don't have, than sell it. Even when i do buy frags, i simply can't justify spending an exuberant amount of money on something small and unimpressive, just to wait for it to grow up and disappoint.

Now i open this up to input, keep it civil and be adults. I'm not aiming at anyone, but venting frustration of the current state of things. Please share your thoughts and ideas, and who knows we may be able to justify why i have to pay $50 for a 1/2 frag of a blue tort, i still however won't ever buy it.

 

[funman1]

I don't think you could ever break even with your home tanks no matter how much you sell a frag for, Unless you have some special farming tanks, and such.

Yeah I agree it's a bit excessive, but it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
It's an economy that regulates itself, if no ones buys them at $50 then they will bring the price down.

Just like the housing market here in Cali. It's worth what someone will pay for it, even if you and I can't afford the insane cost, someone can and will.

The hobby will set prices based on demand, and adjust itself based on that demand.

 

[Nu2SW]

People who pay those prices either dont know anything and get suckered or live way out in the middle of nowhere and the stores can sell those prices and rake in the money.

Now, myself havent really seen those prices. But I know people are trying to sell those prices.

 

[Avalanche Wolf]

I have seen those prices at Pretty much every local fish store and most of the sales on the retail sites and want ads.

I love this hobby but most I have paid for a coral is 15.00 and I have a LOT of great items in my tank at least I think. But would still love more things diversity wise, but when looking at stuff I have to be realistic and walk away from sooooooooo many things.

That leaves a person with my budget in the range of brown , brown , brown and on the high range, green.

I too really dont understand like with zoas and palys something that from what I read and see grow reaallly fast in proigation tanks but people are selling 1-2 polyps for 50-80 dollars !! There is NOOOOOOoo way i would buy this no matter how cool it is or rare the color that is crazy.

I understand there is a lot to go into culivating this for sale espeicaly with CA power rates but still just leaves a reefer like me looking for deals in the cold on getting anything really colorfull and exciting.

You would think that with captive propigation the prices would be a lot cheaper than that of wild caught items but that really seems to be the oppisite where CP are MORE money than those of WP items.

Yes they are going to be hardier for the money but at the same time they are going to be more available as well.


Personally I wouldnt have half the items in my tank if it wasnt for those in the club that have given people great deals on items or items i have won from the raffle like my 2 sand sifting starfish.

 

[Elite]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9347990#post9347990 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nu2SW
People who pay those prices either dont know anything and get suckered or live way out in the middle of nowhere and the stores can sell those prices and rake in the money.
....

Really??

 

[matttaylor]

It's actually nice to see that my opinion is shared by others. Hopefully the time will come when prices are realistic and we're not paying $50 to $80 for one polyp. Whats next, acro's that are sold per polyp?

 

[MrMikeB]

Matt,

To add weight to the 'other' side of the argument, it is simple economics at its finest. I have something (assume I am the person with the special blue tort) and you want it. 4 other people want it, and I know I am the only person in town who has it. So the inevitable outcome of a capitalist society is that I just created a market where one may have not existed before. I can set the price, and as long as you really want it then you will pay for it.

When you get it, you know you paid a bunch of money for it, so it has to be special, or you cannot justify it to yourself that you just spent that kind of money. So you inflate its value by clamoring over how cool it is and further increase the desire for this coral by showing it off to other reefers. Their desire for what you have fuels the demand, yet supply is limited - so prices will increase or at the very least remain the same. When you consider the power of coveting thy neighbors corals, it is easy to see how demand can fuel these prices even in second or third generation frags.

This will continue in this cycle until there is enough supply to keep up with demand and/or the desire runs out (usually because there is less demand). Tyree, Tubs, and the rest of the corals with designer names to it fundamentally understand this process and have done very well to perpetuate it as any entrepreneur should. In fact, they have used branding to keep demand strong even if there is a good supply - "Ooo... it has LE in the name, so it has to be expensive and cool." As long as its desirable to have something with Tyree or Tubs in the name, or some other trait that is equally mainstream and highly regarded, generally prices will remain strong. Think of BMWs/Jags/Rolls/etc. - branding has a huge impact on markets.

Is it wrong to charge $50 a polyp for PPEs or $80 for a frag of Purple Monster? I say no. We live in a business focused world and everybody is looking for opportunity where it exists to further their own cause, so why not corals? Like stamps, coins, horses, photography, etc. - its all the same. If you have something people want - you have the market.

 

[Justin74]

I do share your sentiment, but I go a lil more extreme than that Matt. If we could all get a 1/4" fragment to a 5X5" colony for 50$ regardless, I dont think we'd be having this discussion. But this hobby generates MANY capitolistic swines who are after much more than yours or my 50$.

Try 100, 300, 500 and up to 600$ a poylp. That to me is downright disgusting, and those people IMO should be hung by there short and curlies. Especially when they picked it up from the wholesaler for as low as 25-40$.

Ya this is a capitolistic market, but there are also standards within the industry, and with hobbiests like ourselves. For the sake of store fronts, it's pretty safe to say we can expect a mark up of twice up to 3X the amount of cost and justify for the cost of doing business(rent, power, supply, etc.) which I dont think most will argue the justifications for such a deal.

But to me, to sit and watch someone who doesnt even operate through a brick and mortar store jack up the prices just because the "dubs" are doing it is just as crooked as I think the dubs are. Will it change? Not as long as someone gets first dibs buying up all of the latest "cool" coral, or those that are getting there corals illegally, which really starts coralmanias because someone just brought a coral in to the states that we normally arent allowed to receive over here, inturn causing pandamonium over a coral that is just beyond our reaches except to an elite or shady few, often unbeknown to the general public which arent aware of the ethical dillemmas certain corals can create.

Im right there with you though Matt, I just wish it WAS a matter of 50$. I have often sold coral here on this thread with the mentality you share, ya, I bought the ROAB digi for 40, ya, I turn around and sell it for 20 for the only intent on making it more accessible and to drive the unreasonable costs down. Honestly though, through my few years of interacting with this club there are only a small few that maintain the perceived worth of a coral when they sell or trade it off. The rest of us(Id say at LEAST 75%) feel the same as you, a coral is a coral and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, what gives me the right to say my coral is worth more than yours? Nothing

Basically its gonna be the people that are willing to suck up some of the costs for the benefit of everyone that may also like the coral but cant take and advance out to get it. Or the people that find an amazing deal contrary to the markets momentum(which is usually the case with the stuff I get) that spread the wealth.

Point is be aware of the market, and if you dont like it, put your money back in your pocket and make a stand. The more of us there are the more momentum WE will create.

I believe there should be a slightly higher value for you aquacultured frags though. One, there gonna be hardier as they were developed in a closed system. Two, you just saved a chunk of the reef by doing so. Three and lastly, the farmer should be rewarded for perpetuating the gem that he made hardier and accessible to me and you without taking one grain from our wild reefs. This belief is shared with fish and all critters for that matter. Always buy aquaculture if possible!!

-Justin

 

[Unarce]

Good posts, Steve and Mike! Pretty easy once you grasp that understanding. In comparison with other metropolitan areas, Sacramento doesn't have a strong reefkeeping population, which was indicative by the participation of locals in last years WMC.

Some of the views above might be the majority here. Maybe, not so much in Southern California, or Houston, or Chicago, or even as close as the Bay Area.

 

[matttaylor]

Two very excellent points, and well thought out. I think that Mike made an excellent point from the "seller" side, if theres a market and desire from the hobbyist, prices will stay high. This is indeed capitalism at its best. And i do agree with Justin, i'd rather buy an aquacultured piece because 90% of the time it will be hardier and acclimated to captivity.

However what is to stop people from putting their names on their coral and trying to sell them for outrageous prices? The answer is nothing. I have a bright green sinularia that i should put my name on and sell it for $75 per inch. Is it bright and colorful, yes. Would i be that self infatuated, no way. It's all a matter of individual taste.

 

[Elite]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9350448#post9350448 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by matttaylor
......

However what is to stop people from putting their names on their coral and trying to sell them for outrageous prices? The answer is nothing. I have a bright green sinularia that i should put my name on and sell it for $75 per inch. Is it bright and colorful, yes. Would i be that self infatuated, no way. It's all a matter of individual taste.

Sure why not??.. You might have problem finding buyers though ..

I paid $10 for 4" piece :smokin: ..

 

[Unarce]

Originally posted by matttaylor
However what is to stop people from putting their names on their coral and trying to sell them for outrageous prices? The answer is nothing. I have a bright green sinularia that i should put my name on and sell it for $75 per inch. Is it bright and colorful, yes. Would i be that self infatuated, no way. It's all a matter of individual taste.

That's the problem. There's nothing to stop them. You can simply choose not to buy from them. The naming thing gets abused quite a bit. I agree, as I buy tank raised livestock about 90% of the time. I just feel that the value of paying 5x more for a multi-generational frag is far greater than buying something that just came from the wholesaler.

Too often than not, someone will get a hold of a piece that might look similar to the Superman Danae, for example. Even though it's not, they'll simply apply the name in hopes of getting a bit more out of it.

 

[MrMikeB]

Well I think you stumbled on the crux of the whole thing Matt. Why buy a coral in the first place? If you understand your true motivation (because its cool, because I don't have it and I want it, or because you are helping to save the reefs, etc.), you can easily quantify whether your motivation is strong enough to warrant the cost of doing so. In most of our situations, our motivation is simply not there to warrant a high priced colorful stick that's about 1/2." For others, they can and do.

I would not go so far as to suggest branding as a form of self infatuation, it merely is a mechanism to promote a name, which in turn inflates prices, and thus a business is born. You think Nike shoes really cost $50 a pair to make so they can be sold at the stores for $150? You are paying for whatever Nike means to you, and not necessarily the shoe's 'real' cost or value.

I bring attention to the 'dark side' of the hobby not because I readily identify with it but because I can understand it for what it is. Personally, like many of us here, I give many of my corals away at great values - even ones I paid these high prices to acquire in the first place. Why? My motivation is to actually prove to myself my skills are maturing to a level where I am actually in a place to frag something instead of throwing it out because it died. Its more a sense of accomplishment for me that proves I am on the right track. I tossed out any naive concept I might have initially had of making any money at this long ago and have not looked back. For me it still about the pretty colors.

 

[Unarce]

Originally posted by MrMikeB
I tossed out any naive concept I might have initially had of making any money at this long ago and have not looked back.

That's the perception that I think too many unfairly have about guys like Tyree or tubs, or many vendors for that matter. I don't know firsthand, but understand that this is a very, very tough business to be in. Neither of those guys made a killing distributing corals for supposedly 'ridiculous' prices, hardly ever breaking even.

 

[matttaylor]

I agree, it is all about the pretty colors. However, pretty colors can be had from many different corals. Look at ricordias and zoo's. They tend to be the over priced pieces 90% of the time. However there definitely is a market for them now. 10 years ago ricordia and zoo's had no market and you could pick up an entire rock with 50 + polyps for $10 in any color you wanted. Now people are paying $50 or more per polyp of certain ones. I won't deny that they are extremely colorful, but i would never spend that much money on a single polyp. I'm happy with the massive rock of paly's i just got for free. It's got at least 30 polyps on it, and they may be brown, but i think they are incredibly beautiful. To someone else, they would be ugly and boring. To each his or her own. I would appear that this topic has just as many answers as it does questions. And as long as the market is there people will buy.

 

[FunGuy]

I agree with a lot of what Mike and Justin say. The market is there and it's extremely hard to fight against it. I'm cursed because I'm picky about what I keep and want brilliant colors. I either have to pay for it or wait it out and see if the market for the corals dies down. Too many people are willing to pay for it at high prices so the market will not go down. I therefore either accept I won't get certain coral or I pay the current price.

As a hobbyist, it gets awfully expensive and I don't want the tank to to become a money pit as many of you might call it. I am not rich enough to justify having a hobby which keeps taking money, no matter how pretty my tank might be. There are too many fun, free hobbies. So as I buy some of these over priced corals, I can't justify it unless I try can recover some or all of the money. I end up selling them cheaper than what I buy them for, but still at a price beyond what I think any coral should sell for. Any profits for a specific coral end up going back into the tank eventually. Breaking even is definitely a possibility if you own the right high in demand coral and can sell them. Profitting might even be possible for some with the right setup.

We all just need to get rich... then prices wouldn't matter I'd love to hear some possible ways people keep level headed, avoid going bankrupt from the hobby, and get nice coral.

 

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9350526#post9350526 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Unarce
... I just feel that the value of paying 5x more for a multi-generational frag is far greater than buying something that just came from the wholesaler....

Good point. BUT, that multi-generational frag did once come as a singular generation directly from the wholesaler or transhipment!

Plus, the lineage is only of interest when the source of the lineage carries an interest, and sometimes the only interest is of the source itself and not the coral!



-Justin

 

[Unarce]

That's true, Justin. Still, you have to think of how many wild colonies you'd have to go through before finding something that not only has adapted well to tank conditions, but is spectacularly colored as well.

Since I can't afford the gadgets, or supplements, or zeovit, or ultralith, or ozone, or aminos, or HGH to get wild SPS to do that for me. Buying multi-generational just seems cheaper

 

[tfp]

i see nothing wrong in asking what you paid for the coral to begin with or what its current market value is. if i've raised the coral from a $50 frag, why shouldn't i be able to ask $50 for a frag if its healthy, used to tank conditions, holding its color and growing. that is where i take the most pride in my reef...95% of my corals started as tank-raised 1" frags (and some still are 1" frags!)

all marketing and LE-hype aside, but i think also fair because of all the risks you endure in just keeping a reef. such luck or skills to avoid deadly power failures, temp/alk/sg swings, stings/rashes, stn/rtn events, pathogens, pests, failed/malfunctioning equipment and their results is hard to put a cost on.

speaking of costs, this thread really got me thinking about how much it costs me to run my 300g reef annually and it was rather discouraging. i just did a rough calculation and it wasn't pretty
so why not sell a few frags now and then to minimize the damage.

 

[brianbigoats]

Re: Topic of Discussion

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9347880#post9347880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by matttaylor

In addition, why do shops now sell only frags and an occasional colony?

First I believe it is a good thing shops only sell frags it reduces the stress on the natural reef’s as well as less your chance of getting pest in you tank it is a lot easier to inspect a one inch frag than a whole colony where you can not see into ever nook and cranny of the coral. With the chance of getting things like AEFW I will not put Whole colonies into my tank reduces the chances if you start with a frag IMO.