Total System Levasole Planaria Kill Recipe
- Thread starter CleveYank
- Start date
CleveYank
20 Years and Over
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT dudley.
It went from diligent exactness to mire and maybes and about this much. I refrained from posting my discontent with the crazy train rolling of the rails 3 times. Half done and half appled seems to have become the new American Intellectual Process so there's probably no sense in crying about it nor flaming any chemical gurus out there.
And I wasn't the one I wanted swinging from the ropes either BTW.
I am in the middle of 3 huge projects and one being adding another 300 to 500 gallons to my system with a basement remodel. So getting some of the new stuff and doing the math of concentrations between my original and the new "maybe stuff" will have to wait. Plus I need to track down a culture and that's getting tougher and tougher. At least locally so many have killed their flatworms off that I think they're drying up.
Anyway, guess I'll let the mystical guesswork ensue.
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rob.holbrook
New member
I agree with Cleve Yank...
Seems like it has all turned into what worked great to a bunch or people putting random amounts of levimisole into their fish tanks.
Either way the original worked great for me ... thanks for all your work cleveyank.
Seems like it has all turned into what worked great to a bunch or people putting random amounts of levimisole into their fish tanks.
Either way the original worked great for me ... thanks for all your work cleveyank.
I dosed my tank yesterday. I put 1/2 teaspoon in 240ml and dosed 180ml (180 gallon tank, sump is currently disconnected) and watched what happened. I started seeing them float around and others crawling but nothing melting. After an hour I dumped in the remaining solution putting in the full 1/2 teaspoon for the 180 gallon tank. After 2 hours I put an XP3 on the tank with 2 trays of carbon. Effects: snails stopped moving, nassirus snail came out and started moving around. Clams retracted a little but did not close up. After observing the tank I figured I really didn't need to do the water change. I checked the tank this morning and crabs are still alive, cleaner shrimp still ok, snails starting to move around. Seems like everything is ok so far.
SunnyX
New member
Just out of curiosity.....
Has anyone been dosing levamisole for 1+ years and had good success with SPS?
Reason I ask is I get quite a few emails and PM's daily concerning how to solve issues in SPS systems. Most are easy fixes and in a couple months the systems are back up and doing well. But, I have had six reefers who no matter what we tried were unable to get the SPS healthy and growing again. It turns out that the six tanks were all dosing some form of levamisole. These tanks all shared the same problems of bleaching at the base of SPS and little to no growth. A couple of reefers have since turned their systems around by running large amounts of carbon, polyfilters, and purigen in order to remove any residual levamisole. Unfortunately, three of the systems that were dosing levamisole have since crashed.
So, I was curious if anyone else has been having issues with SPS since start up of levamisole ?
Sonny
www.RimlessReef.com
Has anyone been dosing levamisole for 1+ years and had good success with SPS?
Reason I ask is I get quite a few emails and PM's daily concerning how to solve issues in SPS systems. Most are easy fixes and in a couple months the systems are back up and doing well. But, I have had six reefers who no matter what we tried were unable to get the SPS healthy and growing again. It turns out that the six tanks were all dosing some form of levamisole. These tanks all shared the same problems of bleaching at the base of SPS and little to no growth. A couple of reefers have since turned their systems around by running large amounts of carbon, polyfilters, and purigen in order to remove any residual levamisole. Unfortunately, three of the systems that were dosing levamisole have since crashed.
So, I was curious if anyone else has been having issues with SPS since start up of levamisole ?
Sonny
www.RimlessReef.com
CleveYank
20 Years and Over
Sonny,
My main system which was a part of this trial had various forms of SPS of hardy to delicate. I didn't use any flash and mirrors IE dose differently from what I posted. And I lost 2 frags which I had duplicates of already at the time of dosing. I dosed for 4 weeks as a preventative to insure I got the planaria in what may be a reproductive/dormancy cycle. Since we do not really know thier cycle or the site for their eggs. Now, the SPS are growing. The planaria are gone. That's my long term experience with it thus far on a systemwide or in tank dosing.
Now, I treat all incoming corals,frags, nems, anything really. With a levasole dip, iodine and interceptor. And if it's from a questionable source I just don't buy or accept the trade.
What I have noted in another trial I did on the levasole as a monty nudis eating eradicator was that the amount of levasole needed was enough to kill the patient. I'm going from memory here, but I think I was at the 5ml per gallon point which slowed the monty mudis down but zoas were oozing and the montiporas were sliming which led to a total kill in the 20 gallon by the next day I tested the stuff on.
Therefore, I would guess that continual dosing of levasole could impact not only SPS, but the whole micro-ecosystem of a captive reef. I didn't run a continued dosage scheme so I do not know for sure what that would do. But my GUESS is that the virtually unknown longterm or method (in the organisms? The substrate? In the rock? Bond in solution with something else in saltwater?) by which levasole would store or accumulate in a system would be a harmful thing.
IF there was continued dosing of the levasole? Well, I would kinda fall on the side of going from the common sense of things in this manner. Levasole which is a cheaper substitute for the salifert stuff causes the worms to melt. Kinda like salt poured on slugs which alot of mean little kids out there used to do.
Levasole must either directly attack the outer skin or whatever the dermal layer of a planaria is called. Or it's absorbed by the animal and it disrupts the internal cell membranes in the planaria possibly by an osmotic shock and they melt because the membranes explode and maybe that's why we see them melt away while they are moving. Just guessing. But if either of those are the means by which levasole nukes planaria then one can make a leap to believe that somehow, someway it would impact the same on other things in a tank under too high or long term continued dosage. And on the side of horse sense. If the doctor gives you amoxycillian for a virus and you kick the virus in 10 to 14 days and you continue to take the amoxycillian...well I'd think that would be kinda bad for you.
Anyway,
What I do know is that a mild dosage with my initial recipe under the duration in the planaria trial cured the system of planaria. And things have never been better.
Just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts on the stuff.
Mike.
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inkmaker
New member
It really surprised me to learn that Levamisole HCl was being used to kill off Planaria in salt water reef tanks with all the live rock inhabitants like snails, feather dusters, brittle stars, starfish, limpets, abalones, sea urchin, sea anemone, coral, and sea sponge, etc. Just about all of these animals are lower life forms, the cnidarians.
Levamisole acts on the nervous system of higher worms, like many Nematodes, so that it freezes the muscular movement. Effectively killing the animal by stopping the respiration. The flat worm, the marine Planaria, belongs to a large group, the Turbellaria, so named for the method of movement of beating the cilia on their underside, allowing them to glide along on a film of mucus. This is much like the slugs mentioned above. The Levamisole effectively freezes the muscles and probably causes them to contract. This would effectively squeeze out the animal's mucus and it would appear they are dying like salt on a slug.
That said, they and the Nematodes are a more complex life form above the Cnidaria. The effect on the Cnidaria is likely similar but on a small scale. and the Cnidaria are more likely to regenerate due to their size and natural ability. However, prolonged exposure to the medication has got to be to the expense of the animals.
It makes good sense to be sure the water is free of Levamisole as soon a possible. Changing water, new charcoal, what ever it takes as soon as the job is done.
Charles H
Levamisole acts on the nervous system of higher worms, like many Nematodes, so that it freezes the muscular movement. Effectively killing the animal by stopping the respiration. The flat worm, the marine Planaria, belongs to a large group, the Turbellaria, so named for the method of movement of beating the cilia on their underside, allowing them to glide along on a film of mucus. This is much like the slugs mentioned above. The Levamisole effectively freezes the muscles and probably causes them to contract. This would effectively squeeze out the animal's mucus and it would appear they are dying like salt on a slug.
That said, they and the Nematodes are a more complex life form above the Cnidaria. The effect on the Cnidaria is likely similar but on a small scale. and the Cnidaria are more likely to regenerate due to their size and natural ability. However, prolonged exposure to the medication has got to be to the expense of the animals.
It makes good sense to be sure the water is free of Levamisole as soon a possible. Changing water, new charcoal, what ever it takes as soon as the job is done.
Charles H
DNA
New member
Thanks for your insight and wisdom Inkmaker. That was very educative.
Since you seem to know more than the average reefer about this I wonder if you have an idea of how Levamisole becomes inactive and harmless in a reef tank or what really happens to it after we add it. Does it change and become harmless by itself or linger untill the charcoal or waterchanges remove it.
In my case some Planaria appear the day after treatment even though the vast majority of the worms seemed to die almost instantly. The first time I used it I waited for 2-3 months before new ones were found, but now they are found the day after.
Levamisole clearly has impact on more than just the worms since fish breath heavily and hide if I do double the minimal dosage needed to kill the worms. I did this once a week after the initial treatment so it was not dead flatworms causing the distress.
If this is what can happen to fish, how is the microfauna coping?
Since you seem to know more than the average reefer about this I wonder if you have an idea of how Levamisole becomes inactive and harmless in a reef tank or what really happens to it after we add it. Does it change and become harmless by itself or linger untill the charcoal or waterchanges remove it.
In my case some Planaria appear the day after treatment even though the vast majority of the worms seemed to die almost instantly. The first time I used it I waited for 2-3 months before new ones were found, but now they are found the day after.
Levamisole clearly has impact on more than just the worms since fish breath heavily and hide if I do double the minimal dosage needed to kill the worms. I did this once a week after the initial treatment so it was not dead flatworms causing the distress.
If this is what can happen to fish, how is the microfauna coping?
inkmaker
New member
Levamisole will hang around in the system for weeks unless something is done about it. Change the water Ugh!, increase carbon filtration. This removes the organics best, better than time or Bio-filtration, etc. not near as good as changing the water.
Planaria lay eggs, not live bearers. These may be cysts as well as eggs and last for weeks. Check the species - I don't know.
Everything is stressed to some extent - seems like the Planaria most.
There are 900+ species of these Turbellarians. No doubt some are more resistant than others.
Charles H
Planaria lay eggs, not live bearers. These may be cysts as well as eggs and last for weeks. Check the species - I don't know.
Everything is stressed to some extent - seems like the Planaria most.
There are 900+ species of these Turbellarians. No doubt some are more resistant than others.
Charles H
reefatschool
New member
Hey everybody
I'm usually just a lurker but I thought that I would toss in my thoughts and experiences with this stuff. I bought the Levamisole from inkmaker for a few reasons, 1. I had a crap ton of red flatworms in my 8 gallon biocube, 2. my lfs didn't carry flatworm exit, 3. It was way cheaper than flatworm exit even with shipping(about 1/3 the price for 5 grams), 4. My tank couldn't get any worse if this had a false affect on my tank.
With that being said, In my 8 gallon Biocube I currently have a few sps(I have it rigged with a 70 watt halide) some zoas in the shady spots and some acans cause they look cool.
I kinda rushed into it because I only siphoned out the flatworms for only one day and decided that was a big pain cause I had so many with not a lot of water to siphon out with the worms, so I gave up on that. I used the measurements in one of the previous posts to figure out how much to put into my tank and I did roughly a 1/2 teaspoon which is enough for 10 gallons. Right before I added the chemical I turned on my lights seeing as they had turned off for the night already. After about 5 minutes I looked into the tank and saw that there were loads of dead flatworms floating around, I had filter floss in the back to catch anything that was in the water stream so that picked up a lot of them. As this was going on my zoas had actually started to open up so this seemed to have no effect on them at all. Also my snails were all on the wall before I added the chemical and even though they didn't move during it all they never actually fell off the wall. After about 25 minutes I did about a 50-60% water change and everything went back to normal and the snails were back to cleaning the tank. Nothing at all died in my tank except the Red Flatworms and now my tank looks spectacular and I out it all to this chemical.
So for those of you that are skeptical, I only had an 8 gallon tank. In a tank that small any small harmful change could wipe out everything. Nothing died and all my corals/inverts are still alive and look unfazed by it. I am posting this the day after and nothing died over night and I don't see any flatworms. I do plan to dose again in the next week or two to make sure they are gone for good.
So thanks to everyone for their research and thanks to inkmaker for your expertise in the chemical field and being able to sell and ship out the chemical so fast.
*edit
lol wow didn't know that this was my first post ever hear. well if you want to know if I am real you can check out nano-reef for my id, its the same.(I stick to that forum and one in my town)
I'm usually just a lurker but I thought that I would toss in my thoughts and experiences with this stuff. I bought the Levamisole from inkmaker for a few reasons, 1. I had a crap ton of red flatworms in my 8 gallon biocube, 2. my lfs didn't carry flatworm exit, 3. It was way cheaper than flatworm exit even with shipping(about 1/3 the price for 5 grams), 4. My tank couldn't get any worse if this had a false affect on my tank.
With that being said, In my 8 gallon Biocube I currently have a few sps(I have it rigged with a 70 watt halide) some zoas in the shady spots and some acans cause they look cool.
I kinda rushed into it because I only siphoned out the flatworms for only one day and decided that was a big pain cause I had so many with not a lot of water to siphon out with the worms, so I gave up on that. I used the measurements in one of the previous posts to figure out how much to put into my tank and I did roughly a 1/2 teaspoon which is enough for 10 gallons. Right before I added the chemical I turned on my lights seeing as they had turned off for the night already. After about 5 minutes I looked into the tank and saw that there were loads of dead flatworms floating around, I had filter floss in the back to catch anything that was in the water stream so that picked up a lot of them. As this was going on my zoas had actually started to open up so this seemed to have no effect on them at all. Also my snails were all on the wall before I added the chemical and even though they didn't move during it all they never actually fell off the wall. After about 25 minutes I did about a 50-60% water change and everything went back to normal and the snails were back to cleaning the tank. Nothing at all died in my tank except the Red Flatworms and now my tank looks spectacular and I out it all to this chemical.
So for those of you that are skeptical, I only had an 8 gallon tank. In a tank that small any small harmful change could wipe out everything. Nothing died and all my corals/inverts are still alive and look unfazed by it. I am posting this the day after and nothing died over night and I don't see any flatworms. I do plan to dose again in the next week or two to make sure they are gone for good.
So thanks to everyone for their research and thanks to inkmaker for your expertise in the chemical field and being able to sell and ship out the chemical so fast.
*edit
lol wow didn't know that this was my first post ever hear. well if you want to know if I am real you can check out nano-reef for my id, its the same.(I stick to that forum and one in my town)
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CleveYank
20 Years and Over
As Melev stated WELCOME.
As to inkmaker. The information derived from this study from the onset was from information via other studies well before this experiment and advanced aqaurist and peeked my interest by a posting of reefdiver72 and information from those sources that he used. And that I took that information and formulated an exact and duplicable result that could be applied to the 5 gallon nano to the 500 gallon mega system. Calculations and mental/verbal working of the postulate of dosing were actually worked with Serpentman (Jeff Craven BS Marine Bio) prior to my detailed and recorded experiment. Which unless I'm mistaken a duplicable and easy to follow recipe was not online and posted for all prior to my hard work and risk. Which was my goal from the onset. Something that unlike saliferts flatworm exit will actually work if you follow my directions and will rid the hobby of this cumbersome parasite.
I hope that it disappears from our hobby as an active and troublesome hazard of both trading and bioload concern. I know that I'm happy to be able to offer my captive grown corals to others and therby reduce wild caught specimens without this parasite.
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CleveYank
20 Years and Over
So far so good, my system has been free of these beasties. And anyone I've traded with has not called me to say that my frags had these in dips/inspection and things are great. I'll have to post some photos of some of my SPS that I've had for 5 years that survived the flatworms and the levasole.
I believe my behind the scenes partner in crime, Serpentman has had the same result. And his 300 is just a thing to behold and the levasole didn't kill all his stuff either, so it must work.
I believe my behind the scenes partner in crime, Serpentman has had the same result. And his 300 is just a thing to behold and the levasole didn't kill all his stuff either, so it must work.
CleveYank
20 Years and Over
In searching to see if they were resupplying Levasole/Levamisole I found this.
Maybe it's web lore or maybe drug enfrocement issues with it being used to cut drugs. What next?
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/short/150/4/287
Maybe it's web lore or maybe drug enfrocement issues with it being used to cut drugs. What next?
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/short/150/4/287
inkmaker
New member
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CleveYank
20 Years and Over
Melev I found that your own betadine at 6ml to 1000ml of system water with basting worked far better on the not related AEFW's than any result beyond 5ml per gallon on anything. The anything I am making reference to was the trial to nuke monty eating nudis (which I mention in the trial). Once I topped the 4 to 5 ml per gallon marker with Levasole everything in the tank died. So to get a concentration of Levasole to do anything made it toxic as all stink. The 1 or 1.5 ml per gallon from all tests I did apppeared to be the "SAFE" limit no matter what you were trying to nuke. Fortunately if you followed the directions, it worked like a charm for regular planaria flatworms. I state if you followed the directions for there were a couple poster children posted by someone I admired who went on a kneejerk assumption that levasole was levacide and nuke their tanks and yet the party failed to read in this very thread that these folks strayed from the warnings and guidlines and posted that they were overdosing levasole. (I thought TOTM folks approached things with just a tad more objectivity?) No matter it works for planaria and now it's a banned or rare comodity due to another or more profitable niche.
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