Treating ICH with Cupramine

[spieszak]

I've read a couple of sources that say that when treating with copper, its advised to "ramp" up to the desired concentration, but they don't include much detail. Anyone here have a comment on that? If I were to do this, what concentration do I start at, and how fast do I up it? I've read the stickies and didn't see that, but I'm afraid of killing my fish by treating them, especially since right now I can't see any signs of illness.

A couple of things that may or may not affect the answer
The fish look healthy now, swimming well, eating like horses.
They've been in the HT for a week with no treatment
The HT was "cycled" with an HOB filter using a large amount of media from an established tank, so I didn't see a cycle.
The fish don't act or look stressed.

I held off treatment to let the HT stabilize since I saw no immediate danger to the fish, and because I don't want to screw up treating and kill my fish.
Links to my previous posts on this subject below.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2003097
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2002137
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1999840

Thanks guys
-Stacey

 

[geaux xman]

the 1st dose will give you .25ppm. then wait 48hrs and give the 2nd dose, which should land you at .5ppm.

if the fish is eating fine after the 1st dose, i would just go ahead and give the 2nd dose at 48hrs. if it looks like their appetite is severely depressed, then i would probably give 1/2 of the 2nd dose at 48hrs then wait another day or two to give the other 1/2 of the 2nd dose. then you would be at full dosage at 3-4 days rather than 2 days. or you can also split the 1st dose over 2 days also. thus being at .5 over 4-5 days.

many recommend 3 weeks rather than 2 as the container directions indicate. i've never called them personally, but a lot of people have said if you call seachem support, they will suggest 3 weeks. i'm on my 3rd week of cupramine on a emeperor juvie and adult blueface.

what fish are you treating?

 

[spieszak]

Three blue/green chromis and a clown goby. Like I said, they don't show signs on illness at all right now, but don't think i'll feel safe moving them back to the DT after the 8 week fallow if I don't treat. I haven't treated marine ich before, and of course I'm as afraid of the treatment as I am of the ich.
Is it just the normal rapid breathing, lethargy, lack of eating that I'm looking for to know I should stop treatment? Is there a normal reaction that will pass over time that I should "ride out"?

 

[Sk8r]

But they have been exposed to ich, right?
I don't advise the treatment of non-exposed fish, because cupramine causes liver damage. This will likely heal, over time, but it is a serious med.
If they have been exposed, it is appropriate to treat.

 

[spieszak]

I believe they have been exposed yes. If you read the terribly long post in this thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2002137 you can read the whole story. I'm unfamiliar with lots of this stuff, and I'm questioning my every move.

 

[Sk8r]

Yes, they were exposed.
And good to question every step.
One last caveat: watch your water level: evaporation will concentrate the cupramine, so keep it topped off at all times. And of course don't use any carbon [absorbs the med.]

Copper lowers available oxygen [so be sure there's good waterflow] and lowers appetite [garlic might help with that.]

Wishing you a very good outcome.

 

[spieszak]

Thanks . I'm running a "bubbler" in the tank to boost oxygen levels and since the tank has a full hood that doesn't seem to have upped evap. That is a bonus of having the HT running for a full week now, I have an idea of what my top off is, and how the tank is reacting. Also, the salt creep isn't bad because of the the spot that its "hitting" on the hood. Do I need to be concerned about the copper in the creep? I mean, if I just maintain the levels (testing twice daily), am I going to be ok, or would the creep be a problem? I could see this being a problem if the creep falls back into the tank, but I don't know if the copper will actually evap out into the creep.

 

[spieszak]

oh, and one more question. Is there a time of day where it's better to start treatment? I'm working on the assumption that I'll start late this afternoon (but not too late so that I won't have time to monitor) so that the majority of their first hours in treatment will be during "lights out resting time"

 

[btkrausen]

Great read guys. I'll be approaching the 48 hour mark tonight, and have been watching for information on this.

I put the "two drops" per gallon in the tank(40B) and everyone seems to be fine, except for my Johnsoni wrasse that didn't make it after the copper. ($450 loss)

One question I had was that my Salifert kit seemed to measure about .5 already, but shouldn't it be .25?

 

[geaux xman]

drops varies a lot depending on the pipette. i use pippettes all the time at work, depending on which pipette, the drops can be twice the volume of small pipettes.

you would probably be better off using a syringe. it is 8mls/40g to be at .5ppm. the salifert kit comes with a 2ml syringe.

not sure how well wrasses do with cupramine.

 

[btkrausen]

Thanks. I did drops straight out of the culpramine bottle, the smaller one. I'll remeasure later to see what it says.

Yeah, I hope my other wrasses make it with no problems. My Red Tail Flasher seems to be hanging around the bottom of the tank today, but was swimming yesterday.

 

[spieszak]

Off topic (kinda) question in addition to the above. When I look specifically at this forum, it shows the stickies and the first few posts after that, but there is no "next" button/link. Why would only the first page show?

 

[btkrausen]

Change how many days show up on the bottom left, under the last thread that shows.

 

[spieszak]

Well, that's simple... I guess other forums must 'default' to something different, or get more traffic or something.. Thanks!

 

[MrTuskfish]

Great read guys. I'll be approaching the 48 hour mark tonight, and have been watching for information on this.

I put the "two drops" per gallon in the tank(40B) and everyone seems to be fine, except for my Johnsoni wrasse that didn't make it after the copper. ($450 loss)

One question I had was that my Salifert kit seemed to measure about .5 already, but shouldn't it be .25?

IME, only a SeaChem copper test kit gives an accurate reading of Cupramine, same mfgs.

 

[snorvich]

Copper level is somewhat difficult to maintain. Test frequently.

 

[tidenknox]

IME, only a SeaChem copper test kit gives an accurate reading of Cupramine, same mfgs.

Yeah I've noticed since I started my QT process on Thursday that the API copper test kit I bought sucks. I am going to buy one from Seachem today at my local LFS. I've yet to get the API to give an accurate reading which of course worries me that my level may be too high.

 

[snorvich]

Yeah I've noticed since I started my QT process on Thursday that the API copper test kit I bought sucks. I am going to buy one from Seachem today at my local LFS. I've yet to get the API to give an accurate reading which of course worries me that my level may be too high.

Too high or too low is not a good thing!

 

[WienerDog]

I am payin attention to this...I just started my hospital tank today and dosing cupramine. I too, just tried to test with API and got nothing. Apparently I read this too late. Tomorrow after work I will get the seachem or salifert copper test. I dropped about half the dosage. Once I get the proper test I'll complete the dosage. ANY ADVICE from the above postees????

 

[tidenknox]

I am payin attention to this...I just started my hospital tank today and dosing cupramine. I too, just tried to test with API and got nothing. Apparently I read this too late. Tomorrow after work I will get the seachem or salifert copper test. I dropped about half the dosage. Once I get the proper test I'll complete the dosage. ANY ADVICE from the above postees????

I'd get the Seachem test kit if you can find one. The API kit didn't show anything but the Seachem came back as .05. Good luck!