Treatment of fish

[DeathMagnetic]

Honestly, i think its important to understand that these things happen. Its a risk taken when maintaining a marine aquarium. I believe that ich can come and go in even an established aquarium. I have had run ins with ich in the past. To prevent it I run a UV on my return. Haven't had any negative effects from this yet so I'll keep doing it. My philosophy is to let the ich run its course. I dose with garlic and run my UV if a fish shows symptoms. Not much else I'm interested in doing. I don't believe in dosing any chemicals into my reef. I would rather risk losing a fish to ich versus potentially harming my corals and established ecosystem.

I think the problem with that philosophy is that you will always have issues.. add a new fish 6 months down the road and a few days later all your fish have ich again.. best to get it out of the system, quarantine, and be done with it once and for all...

HTH

Joe

 

[wooden_reefer]

The discussion on how to maintain nitrification bacteria in QT for months and months is too tangential for the OP. I do not want to digress too much here, and I have responded in other threads.

But fishless cycling is not tangential here and I want the OP to know very well.

To the OP, if you still believe in the voodoo of cycling with livestock and/or its twin brother "stocking slowly to allow the bacteria population to catch up", you will be helpless in this crisis. You may well be perplexed and indecisive. Absolutely put the brothers in the garbage can.

Using the fishless method to cycle, at the end of the cycle the nitrification bacteria population will be extremely high, high enough to handle ALL and any bioload all at once. If you do not know this you will be perplexed.

No natural production of ammonia by any amount of bioload can possibly approach the level of ammonia in artificial pulses of ammonia, except if you do not remove big dead livestock and allow the large body to decay.

If you do not have to use a drug that harms nitrification bacteria, the above is true.

Why might you need to use such a drug? If bacterial infection occurs.

Knock on wood that no con-current bacterial infection happens to you in this crisis.

This brings back to the importance of UV, not against protozoans but against bacteria. Do you understand UV?

 

[sleepydoc]

Ich can come and go? Does it fly? News to me. I wonder why none of my 36 fish haven't had it come at all?

Probably for the same reason the OP's fish never 'had' it before; they've either had it all along and s/he didn't know it or it was introduced with a new fish. Read the stickies on the lifecycle and other info on ich.

 

[caribfan]

I'm pretty sure we have scared R.W. away now, I haven't seen him post anything in a while.

Just for the record, I wasn't saying that artifical ammonia cycling is necessarily bad. This is a forum for opinions, and in my experience, I've had the most luck with using cycled biomedia, which is why I recommended what I did.

Cycling with livestock is not Voodoo, it's grounded in biological factual science. I've been doing it for 10 + years with good success. I understand you have more experience and may have used the artifical method successfully, and that's great. Details for R.W. on how to do that would be great. Maybe even a product recommendation.

Truly, my reason for recommending keeping the QT set up is so that in the future, he would be prepared for adding new fish, not providing mass treatment for all his current fish.

I think if there is one thing you and I agree on, it's that quarantining is an absolute necessity. In my opinion, keeping a dedicated tank set up and cycled is the easiest way to do that. The differences here are in how we would set up an emergency hospital tank. I would use bioballs from another all ready cultured source (aka fellow reefer or LFS), you would use new sterile biomedia while cycling with artifical ammonia additions. Either way, you end up with a cultured biofilter.

 

[sleepydoc]

I'm pretty sure we have scared R.W. away now, I haven't seen him post anything in a while.

Hopefully not - he's probably spending all his time taking care of his sick fish. Hopefully it was ich and not velvet or brook.

On a related note, I know there are no 'reef safe' cures for ich, but was I was wondering as I read the thread was if any of them may have a use in a situation like this to reduce the bioload of parasites and allow more time for a definitive treatment? I'm thinking not, as the reason they're not acceptable on their own is the same reason they probably wouldn't work for this purpose. Thoughts?

 

[wooden_reefer]

I'm pretty sure we have scared R.W. away now, I haven't seen him post anything in a while.

Just for the record, I wasn't saying that artifical ammonia cycling is necessarily bad. This is a forum for opinions, and in my experience, I've had the most luck with using cycled biomedia, which is why I recommended what I did.

Cycling with livestock is not Voodoo, it's grounded in biological factual science. I've been doing it for 10 + years with good success. I understand you have more experience and may have used the artifical method successfully, and that's great. Details for R.W. on how to do that would be great. Maybe even a product recommendation.

Truly, my reason for recommending keeping the QT set up is so that in the future, he would be prepared for adding new fish, not providing mass treatment for all his current fish.

I think if there is one thing you and I agree on, it's that quarantining is an absolute necessity. In my opinion, keeping a dedicated tank set up and cycled is the easiest way to do that. The differences here are in how we would set up an emergency hospital tank. I would use bioballs from another all ready cultured source (aka fellow reefer or LFS), you would use new sterile biomedia while cycling with artifical ammonia additions. Either way, you end up with a cultured biofilter.

Cycling with livestock is not effective to overcome this crisis.

What he needs is the fastest and the most robust nitrification filter that will help him eradicate ich in the second round of this battle. Protozoan can reappear soon to acute condition again. To do so, he needs to cycle with high enough level of ammonia that will kill fish in the process.

If the OP does not reappear I will discuss this, but I do not want to hijack this thread with his interest in mind. He does not need to know much more than this.

 

[wooden_reefer]

" In my opinion, keeping a dedicated tank set up and cycled is the easiest way to do that."

Your opinion is wrong. The best way to maintain a QT medium so that it is active all the time is NOT by a couple of damsels. It is by periodic addition of pulses of ammonia.

After a few months of stability, the bacteria to support two damsels will always only support two damsels. You seem to know enough but fail to see this obvious truth.

Cycling and recharging with ammonia is to always create DISequilibrium so that there is more bacteria than equilbrium condition. You insert livestock while there is disequilibirum, where more bacteria than needed is present, so that a new equilibrium is reached without the livestock exposed to ammonia, and with the death of some bacteria.

Equilbrium is not a good thing when you plan to add new livestock. Equlibrium is good only after you have added the livestock.

Equilbrium + new livestock = new tank syndrome

Disequilbrium with excess bacteria + new livestock = no ammonia + gradual death of the excess bacteria + new equilbrium

 

[wooden_reefer]

" In my opinion, keeping a dedicated tank set up and cycled is the easiest way to do that."

Say, if you see a 6-inch fish you like today, can your two-damsel "cycled" QT handle it?

In your post, you seem to have discredited what you later say.

It is true, as you said, that nitrification bacteria eventual die. IME, they linger on at least three weeks after ammonia or nitrite has been exhausted.

This in SOME way negates the need for robust cycling under ideal condition. If the newbie can QT fish one at a time, most of the bacteria will have died after many months of QTing one fish at a time. I have responded to this reality and stated ways to overcome this reality.

But in this crisis, the OP does not have this choice. All his fish are affected and he has to treat all fish at once. This is when a robust cycle is very useful as he can make use of the great abundance of bacteria at once before the bacteria die gradually.

 

[caribfan]

Cycling with livestock is not effective to overcome this crisis.

What he needs is the fastest and the most robust nitrification filter that will help him eradicate ich in the second round of this battle. Protozoan can reappear soon to acute condition again. To do so, he needs to cycle with high enough level of ammonia that will kill fish in the process.

If the OP does not reappear I will discuss this, but I do not want to hijack this thread with his interest in mind. He does not need to know much more than this.

All right, after I respond to these rebuttals, I'm done, my points have been made and my advice given - anything more is going to cloud the situation. BTW I'm beginning to see how you got the high number of posts that you have.

First off, I never stated that he should cycle his 90 gallon with livestock. Go back and re-read my first post, I clearly state that he should set up a biological filter with cultured media, i.e. read all ready cultured bio balls.

Quick question - which is a quicker way to get an established bio-filter, use pulses of ammonia to start the nitrogen cycle and produce the necessary bacteria, or go get some cycled media and put it in a wet dry. My option takes an afternoon, how long does the ammonia pulse method take.

 

[caribfan]

" In my opinion, keeping a dedicated tank set up and cycled is the easiest way to do that."

Say, if you see a 6-inch fish you like today, can your two-damsel "cycled" QT handle it?

In your post, you seem to have discredited what you later say.

It is true, as you said, that nitrification bacteria eventual die. IME, they linger on at least three weeks after ammonia or nitrite has been exhausted.

This in SOME way negates the need for robust cycling under ideal condition. If the newbie can QT fish one at a time, most of the bacteria will have died after many months of QTing one fish at a time. I have responded to this reality and stated ways to overcome this reality.

But in this crisis, the OP does not have this choice. All his fish are affected and he has to treat all fish at once. This is when a robust cycle is very useful as he can make use of the great abundance of bacteria at once before the bacteria die gradually.

Not saying ammonia pulses don't work, but I'm also saying that my way is not a bad option. I have real life evidence in the form of a Borbonius anthias (not a cheap fish) and a Mitratus Butterfly (another even less cheap fish) that are both living very happily in my QT and have been for two weeks now. Ammonia levels are undetectable. There was one sunshine chromis in the tank prior to me adding these two fish. They aren't six inch fish, but they are fed 2 - 3 times a day. I do a 50% water change once every 7 to 10 days and I don't overfeed.

I understand your passion for the pulses, they have likely worked for you in the past. But it's not black or white. AS i've stated a number of times, I think the best option for R.W. is what he knows and is most comfortable with. I'm giving him another option outside of ammonia pulses.

Additionally, do you have a study around the bacteria culture populations when ammonia is dosed? Do you have the ability to monitor Free and total ATP to understand how it is changing over time? Do you know what ATP is or how it corresponds to bacteria life and life in a system in general? Have you taken or trended Ammonia concentrations as a result of ammonia pulses and plotted them against changes in ATP in your system. This would truly give you an idea of how the bacteria populations respond to ammonia spikes/pulses and additionally how long the higher populations of bacteria which process ammonia linger when there is a lack of ammonia.

Without that knowledge and data, any claims of the biofilters capacity to process large amounts of ammonia or claims to the amount of time the bacteria remain in higher than necessary concentrations are based completely on anecdotal evidence and lacks in true science.

Don't tell me my opinion is wrong when your own is lacking any of the necessary data to be deemed fact. Your opinion is no more right or wrong than mine is because it is in fact at the end of the day, an opinion. To make such a claim is somewhat demeaning and definitely irritating.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"Quick question - which is a quicker way to get an established bio-filter, use pulses of ammonia to start the nitrogen cycle and produce the necessary bacteria, or go get some cycled media and put it in a wet dry. My option takes an afternoon, how long does the ammonia pulse method take"

What takes an afternoon?

Say you want to QT a six inch fish tomorrow you are going to get from your LFS, what can you do today to allow you to do so.

I can tell you that if I see a few large fish at the LFS, I could get them all at once to QT. Ammonia for me will never be the issue.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Not saying ammonia pulses don't work, but I'm also saying that my way is not a bad option. I have real life evidence in the form of a Borbonius anthias (not a cheap fish) and a Mitratus Butterfly (another even less cheap fish) that are both living very happily in my QT and have been for two weeks now. Ammonia levels are undetectable. There was one sunshine chromis in the tank prior to me adding these two fish. They aren't six inch fish, but they are fed 2 - 3 times a day. I do a 50% water change once every 7 to 10 days and I don't overfeed.

I understand your passion for the pulses, they have likely worked for you in the past. But it's not black or white. AS i've stated a number of times, I think the best option for R.W. is what he knows and is most comfortable with. I'm giving him another option outside of ammonia pulses.

Additionally, do you have a study around the bacteria culture populations when ammonia is dosed? Do you have the ability to monitor Free and total ATP to understand how it is changing over time? Do you know what ATP is or how it corresponds to bacteria life and life in a system in general? Have you taken or trended Ammonia concentrations as a result of ammonia pulses and plotted them against changes in ATP in your system. This would truly give you an idea of how the bacteria populations respond to ammonia spikes/pulses and additionally how long the higher populations of bacteria which process ammonia linger when there is a lack of ammonia.

Without that knowledge and data, any claims of the biofilters capacity to process large amounts of ammonia or claims to the amount of time the bacteria remain in higher than necessary concentrations are based completely on anecdotal evidence and lacks in true science.

Don't tell me my opinion is wrong when your own is lacking any of the necessary data to be deemed fact. Your opinion is no more right or wrong than mine is because it is in fact at the end of the day, an opinion. To make such a claim is somewhat demeaning and definitely irritating.

It is not black and white but your method is inferior.

Sometimes the truth can be illustrated by considering the extreme.

Can you safely QT a six inch fish tomorrow? Two six inch fish? Five?

I can easily and have no ammonia.

You say you can QT a small fish without problem with the two damsels. I do not question that. If you remove the damsels, there will be enough for a small fish without ammonia.

If you do not remove the damsels, you will have mini-cycling. Is minicycling always fatal? No. But if you can avoid it, you should.

Zero ammonia is always better than low ammonia.

And, in the crisis such as the Op's, your setup will not work.

In fact, I always set up QT for such contigency in case ich is not eradicated within six months of introducing the last livestock.

I am ready to treat all the fish at once. With just two damsels in the QT, it will not serve as contigency. I always recharged the QT about once a couple of weeks.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The belief of the need to "stock fish slowly to allow bacteria to catch up" is a fallacy that impairs critical thinking during critical time.

An aquarist who really believes in this voodoo will be helpless in this critical situation.

He will not realize that cycling at once WILL remove ammonia from ALL his livestock no matter how great the bioload is.

A newbie should stock slowly, but not so that bacteria will catch up. Bacteria should always be already up before you add new livestock. Newbies should stock slowly for lack of experience in disease control, not so that ammonia will be low. Ammonia should be ZERO.

 

[wooden_reefer]

If you are tasked to provide contigency plan, for six months after the introduction of the last livestock, for a situation when eradication of ich has failed and infestation occurs in a tank with several large fish, what would such a plan be?

Do you think putting two damsels in the QT for the next six months is such a plan?

 

[R.W.]

I started dosing Cupramine yesterday. Im confident all my fish will recover. Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I started dosing Cupramine yesterday. Im confident all my fish will recover. Thanks for the help everyone.

I hope the little digression has not affected your understanding of the method to overcome this crisis.

The part about fishless cycling is not digression, but the part about keeping the QT active enough for future use is not directly relevant to this crisis.

I hope you will eradicate ich in the next round by first cycling very well starting now. If done right, chances are you will not have any ammonia even with many bigger fish.

 

[caribfan]

Cupramine is a great product for ich, be sure to monitor the copper concentration often to be sure the dose is still effect and also not too high. .35 to .50