Triton Elements with a calcium reactor

[Johnseye]

I kicked this around in the Reef Chem forum, but thought I'd bring it here for a more general discussion.

Bottom line is I'd like to make an educated decision about an elements program. I've been using Fauna Marin for about a year now, and I know dosing elements helps. I like Triton's method of knowing and dosing what you need, not dosing blindly. That said, if I don't know what's in Triton's 3 Elements product lines I won't use them.

I will be switching from 2 part to a calcium reactor. This will supply my calcium and alkalinity needs, and I will not stop using a calcium reactor. I would like to supplement my other element requirements with Triton's. What exactly is in "Base Elements", "Core 7" and "Reef Core 7"? Is there an ingredients list somewhere? Red Sea, Fauna Marin and even the typically mysterious Korallen Zucht list what's in their A,B,C,D, 1,2,3,4 elements products. Triton stands on the grounds of comprehensive element analysis so I would think they share what's in their products. I just can't seem to find it.

If these 3 Triton products contain calcium chloride or sodium bicarbonate then I can not use them as supplements. From what I've read, one if not all of them do, I just don't see anything concrete. If that's the case is my only option then to use Triton's stand alone element supplements to dose macro and trace elements?

I've attached a breakdown of the four distributors of macro and trace elements I listed above. I compiled the Triton list from their available stand alone products. The various spellings are from the manufacturer, but you can interpret what they should be in English. When I stop dosing 2 part when the calcium reactor is in place the "Trace" products from Fauna Marin will stop getting dosed which are Strontium, Barium, some Iodine and a heavy metal complex. I already know I don't get enough Potassium through dosing so that and Strontium will need to be supplemented at a minimum. Those two elements can easily be tested for accuracy.

 

[d2mini]

There is no ingredients list for the 4 base elements.
But generally, 1 is the alk, 2 is the calc, i think 3 is the mag, and 4 is additional elements.

FWIW, I ran the CaRx on my previous tank and running these 4 base elements on this tank is just as easy.
All 4 get dosed in equal amounts and once dialed in, all i check is Alk. If alk is off I make the same adjustment to all 4. Everything else falls in line with alk. Just like a CaRx.

You can find a lot more info on the TritonUSA sponsor forum on R 2 R.

 

[Johnseye]

There is no ingredients list for the 4 base elements.
But generally, 1 is the alk, 2 is the calc, i think 3 is the mag, and 4 is additional elements.

FWIW, I ran the CaRx on my previous tank and running these 4 base elements on this tank is just as easy.
All 4 get dosed in equal amounts and once dialed in, all i check is Alk. If alk is off I make the same adjustment to all 4. Everything else falls in line with alk. Just like a CaRx.

You can find a lot more info on the TritonUSA sponsor forum on R 2 R.

I've read through Triton's USA site and some of the posts in the R 2 R sponsor forum. Right now I'm dosing 450ml of sodium bicarbonate a day. Some of my frags are starting to sprout and I just added 13 more. I have some serious alk demand. I don't see dosing a premixed alk or calcium supplement as a good option. I'm moving to a CaRx to avoid 2 part and I moved to 2 part to avoid premix. I also want to decrease my time mixing supplements and hopefully add stability by doing that.

I'm surprised Triton doesn't reveal what's in their base or core 4. One would think with a program like theirs an explanation of what we're putting in our tanks would be standard. However it does put a dependence on regular testing through Triton which may be the intention. We put what they give us in our tanks, they test and we add what is missing. A constant dependency.

Like I said, I think it's a great idea. I just don't like to fly blind. I will have them test my water as I'd like to get a baseline, and I'll probably have them do it again as I modify my dosing regimen. But I'll use another product to dose a blanket of elements and fill in what's needed on an element by element basis.

 

[d2mini]

Yeah for large tanks it can take quite an amount of dosing.
Andy is posting over there (he's local to me) and his tank is around 700g I think.
I haven't checked in lately to see if he's dialed it in yet.
I'm curious what daily dosage he will settle on.

However it does put a dependence on regular testing through Triton which may be the intention. We put what they give us in our tanks, they test and we add what is missing. A constant dependency.

Once dialed in, they recommend ICP testing 3-4x a year. Not bad.
They run sales too so you can pick up a 3-pack of ICP tests during those times.
I've tested my tank only once so far and pretty much everything was where it should be.
I'll probably send off a second test by the end of the month to see if anything has changed.

 

[Johnseye]

One thing I have to add which I find confusing, and a little amusing because it leans to marketing hype, is this from Dastaco:

"DaStaCo has partnered up with Triton Reef to analyze each batch of DaStaCo media to assure that each batch is free and clear of undesirable elements that could deteriorate marine aquarium water quality. This kind of unrelenting quality and standards make DaStaCo media the finest calcium reactor media on the market! And, if you’re looking for the finest calcium reactor on the market, contact us to discuss the amazing DaStaCo reactors, available now!"

Why it's confusing is that Triton doesn't recommend using a calcium reactor. They provide the cal and alk in their base/core elements line. You wouldn't want to do both. I get that Dastaco wants to claim their media is pure and this is verified through Triton analysis, but right on the Dastaco reactor media bucket it says "The most ideal reactor media to use with Triton method". Again I get it, but it's confusing and misleading.

Now, if Triton actually took their product line a step further and either sold their own media or partnered further with Dastaco to come up with a line that complimented CaRx use, then I'd bite. That's what I'm looking for. A compliment to CaRx, not instead of. To date I haven't seen it, and if cal and alk are in Triton's line as we think, then using it with a CaRx would cause numerous issues.

 

[Tim]

So what did you end up doing?

 

[Johnseye]

So what did you end up doing?

I bought a PacSun CalcFeeder Pro. Same principle as the Dastaco, but I don't need to use the Dastaco media so I get the benefit of all the elements found in coral skeletons. This was the first step.

I continue to dose Fauna Marin Trace Elements. It has the best spectrum of combined elements I've found, but it's close with some other brands. I will continue to use this unless my next step takes me elsewhere. I also have a bottle of Potassium from Dastaco and Strontium from KZ. I can test for those independently and dose as needed.

Next step will be to take water samples and send them to Triton. Based on what they tell me I will adjust my element dosing accordingly. I've watched others use the straight Triton method and I don't have the stomach for dealing with the maintenance and algae outbreaks. I figure if I can dose the missing elements to a point I'm getting most of the way there without the headache.

 

[d2mini]

I bought a PacSun CalcFeeder Pro. Same principle as the Dastaco, but I don't need to use the Dastaco media so I get the benefit of all the elements found in coral skeletons. This was the first step.

I continue to dose Fauna Marin Trace Elements. It has the best spectrum of combined elements I've found, but it's close with some other brands. I will continue to use this unless my next step takes me elsewhere. I also have a bottle of Potassium from Dastaco and Strontium from KZ. I can test for those independently and dose as needed.

Next step will be to take water samples and send them to Triton. Based on what they tell me I will adjust my element dosing accordingly. I've watched others use the straight Triton method and I don't have the stomach for dealing with the maintenance and algae outbreaks. I figure if I can dose the missing elements to a point I'm getting most of the way there without the headache.

Have you compared the Fauna Marin to ESV Bionic?
I'm using the ESV now but almost out.

 

[Johnseye]

Have you compared the Fauna Marin to ESV Bionic?
I'm using the ESV now but almost out.

Yes. The list of documented elements in the ESV Bionic and plus+ is the most minimal. Essentially Iron, Manganese, Potassium and Zinc with some carbon sources. There may be other elements in there but they aren't documented. I emailed ESV for a breakdown. If I get a response I'll let you know.

I've attached the list of products available by multiple companies with element breakdowns of each. This is updated from the list in my OP.

Ease of use and cost were also factors. In the attachment on the second tab is a breakdown of elements per product and their normalized estimated cost.

 

[d2mini]

Yes. The list of documented elements in the ESV Bionic and plus+ is the most minimal. Essentially Iron, Manganese, Potassium and Zinc with some carbon sources. There may be other elements in there but they aren't documented. I emailed ESV for a breakdown. If I get a response I'll let you know.

I've attached the list of products available by multiple companies with element breakdowns of each. This is updated from the list in my OP.

Ease of use and cost were also factors. In the attachment on the second tab is a breakdown of elements per product and their normalized estimated cost.

Dang it, i should have gone back and read the OP again rather than going straight to the latest post. LOL! :facepalm:
Great info.

While running just the Fauna Marin (no CaRx) did you do a Triton test to make sure no excess build up of those minor elements?

 

[jda]

The CaRx will supply balanced parts of all elements necessary to grow coral skeletons if you use natural media (recommended) - this is more than the big 3 and goes about a dozen deep IIRC. If you do regular water changes, nothing else is necessary for most needs.

The only real exception to this is dosing iron if you want to grow a lot of macroalgae.

IME, the supplements and additives are black boxes that don't do much and probably less than changing water. They will likely cost more than changing water too. Most folks who claim to see improvement with any particular supplement is usually seeing improvement from the overall renewed/new interest interest that led them to add a supplement to their new routine - few notice when they stop.

 

[d2mini]

The CaRx will supply balanced parts of all elements necessary to grow coral skeletons if you use natural media (recommended) - this is more than the big 3 and goes about a dozen deep IIRC. If you do regular water changes, nothing else is necessary for most needs.

The only real exception to this is dosing iron if you want to grow a lot of macroalgae.

IME, the supplements and additives are black boxes that don't do much and probably less than changing water. They will likely cost more than changing water too. Most folks who claim to see improvement with any particular supplement is usually seeing improvement from the overall renewed/new interest interest that led them to add a supplement to their new routine - few notice when they stop.

I realize that about CaRx and will be going back to one once demand pics up and my wallet recovers from recent events.

Meanwhile, I'd like to basically replicate that as close as possible with a simple dosing system, but not Triton. And nothing that fuels algae. Been there, done that.

This is to supplement my daily auto water changes.

 

[Johnseye]

Dang it, i should have gone back and read the OP again rather than going straight to the latest post. LOL! :facepalm:
Great info.

While running just the Fauna Marin (no CaRx) did you do a Triton test to make sure no excess build up of those minor elements?

I did not, but should have. Ideally had I been thorough would have been first with only a water change, then after a Fauna dose, then towards the end of the week before the next Fauna dose, then with CaRx.

I thought what matters most is the baseline once the CaRx was up and running. Then a day after the Fauna dose. It's a weekly addition which makes it simple, but ends up being a spike with utilization or breakdown. I could also dose it little by little daily but I've seen no adverse effects, only benefits from the weekly dose.

I was dosing very high amounts of calc, alk and mag. All three, but more alk than anything. This made it expensive, a lot of work and allowed for way too much fluctuation in levels. Since adding the CaRx my levels are steady as a pulse and I see the difference in the coral.

The CaRx will supply balanced parts of all elements necessary to grow coral skeletons if you use natural media (recommended) - this is more than the big 3 and goes about a dozen deep IIRC. If you do regular water changes, nothing else is necessary for most needs.

The only real exception to this is dosing iron if you want to grow a lot of macroalgae.

IME, the supplements and additives are black boxes that don't do much and probably less than changing water. They will likely cost more than changing water too. Most folks who claim to see improvement with any particular supplement is usually seeing improvement from the overall renewed/new interest interest that led them to add a supplement to their new routine - few notice when they stop.

I've attempted to uncover the black box as best as possible. With the Triton test I'll be able to accurately identify what's in the water at specific points in time and adjust as necessary. At least that's the idea. We'll see over the next 3-6 months if it works as I'm hoping.

Believe it or not I do see a difference when adding the elements. I've been doing it long enough to see it's not a placebo. I've also watched the effects diminish over time. I still see it after adding the CaRx, but the reactor has provided the stability needed to keep the coral consistently happy. When I would have swings in calc or alk the coral clearly was not happy.

 

[Johnseye]

I realize that about CaRx and will be going back to one once demand pics up and my wallet recovers from recent events.

Meanwhile, I'd like to basically replicate that as close as possible with a simple dosing system, but not Triton. And nothing that fuels algae. Been there, done that.

This is to supplement my daily auto water changes.

Both tabs of my spreadsheet should help. If you know of any other options out there let me know.

Based on my experience, and that of some other's I've read about in these forums, the Fauna Marin has been an excellent supplement to calc, alk, mag. Their balling light trace elements get added to your calc and alk and that gets dosed continuously. I had to give those up with the CaRX. The color elements line is what gets dosed weekly.

 

[d2mini]

Fritz Aquatics just came out with some but I know nothing about them.
Maybe Shawn Hale at Fritz can give you some insight.
I just bought a box of their RPM salt yesterday.

 

[jda]

Does the three part and do your daily water changes. Along with feeding the fish, this is all that you will need.

The biggest issue with the black box is that they have no requirement to, nor usually do, stay static. You trust them day one, you have to trust that they don't change once you figure it out.

 

[Johnseye]

Fritz Aquatics just came out with some but I know nothing about them.
Maybe Shawn Hale at Fritz can give you some insight.
I just bought a box of their RPM salt yesterday.

Thanks. I'll post here in the future if I find anything else.

I did get a response from ESV.

"The active ingredients in our Transition Elements are iron, manganese, and zinc. Our Transition Elements Plus product contains the same but with citric acid and ascorbic acid added for carbon dosing."

 

[jda]

Zinc is a poison for most corals. A little bit is OK. Most companies put it in their "black box" to kill off some zoox and make the color contracts stand out a bit - too much will kill even more zoox and corals will suffer. I would be really careful with Zinc.

 

[zachtos]

How has this worked out? I'm looking to do the same thing... maintain my large expensive reliable calcium reactor, but do ICP testing so I can stop doing water changes and add the missing trace elements...

I can't force myself to buy overpriced baking soda water and road salt water.

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

I tried ESV because that 20,000 gallon tank out here uses it. It could not support any
birds nest coral until using ESV.
I can now grow Goniopora instead of looking @ a frag all the time.