Trouble with QT tank

[MrTuskfish]

Read what SeaChem says about using Cupramine and ammonia neutralizers together. About te 2nd post down on the FAQA. They can be deadly. http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

 

[Shellyfish]

Fish don't seem stressed at all, they are all eating like pigs. Only the trigger has spots and only a few. I may have to order the tests online, I can't find them anywhere here

 

[vamaro]

Again never had an issue. Works perfectly. Used it with triggers including a pair of cross hatch, large angels and puffers. I can't be that lucky. I would have killed something by now. I am not here to have a debate about a chemical. I was just suggesting something that worked for me in the past.

 

[Tim Duncan]

Any time I use my QT, I stick the Ammonia Alert in and everything is fine

 

[wooden_reefer]

I have a 90g tank set up to QT an orange shoulder tang, bluethroat trigger and one spot foxface. There is an aquaclear 110 running on it, with media seeded from my 150g reef. The trigger is showing ich so I need to treat, but am currently having issues with my ammonia. I've added a sponge filter and have been doing daily %25 water changes. The ammonia stubbornly is staying at 1mg/l (according to 2 seperate api tests). Could my tests be wonky? When I test the reef it's at zero. Why can't I get the ammonia down?

In general, you should never have any ammonia in QT.

This is because you should have cycled enough of a medium for use in QT a few weeks before you plan to QT any fish.

If your medium for QT had recently processed several ppm of ammonia within a 48 hour period, you should never have any ammonia while you use the medium in QT. This will be the case if the medium had processed several ppm pulses of ammonia several days apart. No realistic bioload can exceed this artificial ammonia.

One should plan ahead.

I routinely QT many fish at once, but only one well-versed with disease control should do so. QTing many fish at once is NOT recommended until you have mastered disease control quite well. Tuition is cheaper with one fish at a time.

Even a newbie can make sure that the medium for QT is very well cycled, however. So ammonia should never be an issue in QT even for a newbie.


The only exception is when bacterial infection occcurs at the same time. This is because often an antibiotic against pathogenic bacteria will have some negative impact on nitrification bacteria.

Ammonia can be very bad for fish. Many will not die at once but will live for only a couple of months after exposure to ammonia.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Again never had an issue. Works perfectly. Used it with triggers including a pair of cross hatch, large angels and puffers. I can't be that lucky. I would have killed something by now. I am not here to have a debate about a chemical. I was just suggesting something that worked for me in the past.

Nothing even resembles a debate; professionals (I consider SeaChem tech folks among the best around) that work with these chemicals every day just are saying what most experienced hobbyists know. When someone has an experience that goes against almost all proven knowledge, should we point that out or tell a new hobbyist to go by the one exception? This is a forum; sharing knowledge, experience, and opinions. nothing more, nothing less. Your experience is one experience; the discussion just doesn't end there.

 

[Shellyfish]

Well the fish seem fine, although I am concerned about the fact that I dosed extra prime to help with the ammonia. I added some Cycle tonight as that's all I could find and I finally found an ammonia alert which is now stuck in the tank.

Previously I had an ich outbreak in my 150g reef. I had to move all the fish (11 in total) into the 90g to treat. I used seeded media from the 150g in the 90g. I didn't have any ammonia issues. This is why I figured I'd be ok with just the three fish this time. Something apparently went wrong, or my test kit is wonky.

On the ammonia alert it said it could take a few days to adjust to the tank, but ammonia should be noticeable within 15 minutes. I'll have to check it in a few minutes to see where it's at.

This is the most stressful relaxing hobby ever! lol

 

[Shellyfish]

So it's been well over an hour now, the sensor on the ammonia alert is still reading 0 so I'm guessing my API test is wonky. Funny how it seems to work ok on the reef? I'm going to order the Seachem copper and ammonia tests as well.

 

[MellowReefer]

I think you'll be fine. I don't know why using cupramine creates false ammonia readings. Just keep an eye on it, don't overfeed, and another tip in QT is to use a turkey baster to siphon leftover food/waste off the bottom so that's not an extra ammonia source.

One question though - where are you from that you use the word "wonky" and what the heck does that mean?

 

[caribfan]

I think you'll be fine. I don't know why using cupramine creates false ammonia readings. Just keep an eye on it, don't overfeed, and another tip in QT is to use a turkey baster to siphon leftover food/waste off the bottom so that's not an extra ammonia source.

One question though - where are you from that you use the word "wonky" and what the heck does that mean?

Seachem's website states that cupramine contains amines, which is what can cause the false reading.

Obviously the OP is from Willy Wonka land, duh ? ! ?

Glad to hear the fish look like they are going to make it. I'm sure you know this, but be sure to follow the ten week fallow period in your DT, it sucks, but you've gotta do it.

Cheers!

 

[caribfan]

In general, you should never have any ammonia in QT.

This is because you should have cycled enough of a medium for use in QT a few weeks before you plan to QT any fish.

If your medium for QT had recently processed several ppm of ammonia within a 48 hour period, you should never have any ammonia while you use the medium in QT. This will be the case if the medium had processed several ppm pulses of ammonia several days apart. No realistic bioload can exceed this artificial ammonia.

One should plan ahead.

I routinely QT many fish at once, but only one well-versed with disease control should do so. QTing many fish at once is NOT recommended until you have mastered disease control quite well. Tuition is cheaper with one fish at a time.

Even a newbie can make sure that the medium for QT is very well cycled, however. So ammonia should never be an issue in QT even for a newbie.


The only exception is when bacterial infection occcurs at the same time. This is because often an antibiotic against pathogenic bacteria will have some negative impact on nitrification bacteria.

Ammonia can be very bad for fish. Many will not die at once but will live for only a couple of months after exposure to ammonia.

Here we go again, a post with more chastising and horn tuting than actual help.

We are here to help the OP, not tell him what he should have done or how we're better than him/her.

I'm curious, how can you know a fish died from ammonia months later? Autopsy?

 

[Shellyfish]

Thanks everyone. I checked the ammonia alert before going to work this morning and it was still reading 0, so I think my Api test isn’t reading correctly. Thanks Caribfan, I had read wooden_reefer’s post and was wondering how I should have cycled the material properly? I will admit I don’t know everything but I’m far from a newbie and I’ve had saltwater tanks for the past 6 years. This is not the first time I’ve QT’d fish (nor is it the first time I’ve QT’d multiple fish).
Previously I have had an ammonia spike and water changes helped bring it in line quickly. That was part of what was puzzling for me with this situation. Multiple water changes seemed to have no affect on the ammonia (according to the API test).
As I think the test was not working properly I’m hoping my fish will suffer no long term damage from ammonia.
And sadly, no I’m not from Willy Wonka land, just little frozen Winnipeg. Has no one heard that word before? lol

 

[caribfan]

I work with Canadians from time to time, I'm no stranger to the term wonky. Lovely people by the way.

I think your fish will be fine in regards to the ammonia exposure. Im sure you know that in this industry there are a lot of claims made on just about every topic you can imagine. The truth of the matter is though, that without good quality lab studies, or at the very least, a consensus from the experts in the industry, most claims have to be considered nothing more than hearsay or coincidence. I come from a process engineering background and without data, facts are just opinions.

No one disputes the toxicity of ammonia to aquatic life, there is real world evidence, consensus from the experts and most importantly good quality lab studies that prove this. But it's an acute toxicity.

To say that ammonia exposure can cause death months after the exposure incident would be in my opinion "wonky". My response to that claim is "show me the data".

Once again, I'm glad your fish are doing well. One last bit of advice, if you're concerned about the validity of the ammonia alert badge, you can hold the badge over the top of an open ammonia bottle and the badge should turn dark purple relatively quickly. It might give you further peace of mind that your test is operating correctly. It will take a bit for it to go yellow again once you put it back in your tank. I hope we've been helpful.

 

[Shellyfish]

That would be a good thing to try, but I don't have a bottle of ammonia. The badge is still at 0 today, the fishes behavior still doesn't suggest anything weird going on, so I think they are ok. I am going to wait to continue my copper treatment until my seachem copper test arrives, my confidence in the api test I have is not great.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Shellyfish]

Ok, one more question, hopefully someone can answer quickly so I can put my order in tonight. On the site that I'm ordering from there is a warning about test kits freezing in cold weather. If this happens will the tests (seachem copper and ammonia) be useless? I need them to get on with my ich treatment, but I can't find them in the city so I have to order them. We are currently experiencing some pretty cold weather.

 

[caribfan]

I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't think it would be an issue. Maybe consult seachem's website, though i'm kind of doubtful you'll find anything there.

Sorry, not much help, I know.

 

[Shellyfish]

Yeah, I just checked there. I think I'm going to have to take the chance, no one here carries anything other than API or Nutrafin.