Troubleshooting on MBK 160

[Roberto Mio]

Hey Guys, there are a lot of BK Users here, maybe you can help me please?

Issue:
Waterlevel IN the skimmer not high enough

Parametres:
Pipe is full closed
Waterlevel in the Sump is 7,7 inch (19,5cm)
Skimmer is brandnew and in operation since about 12 Hours
Skimmer is already producing a little Foam
Pumpcheck ok

But how can i get the Waterlevel higher than shown in the Picture?
Maybe the Waterlevel in the Sump is too low?

Here are two pics - my new Skimmer and my Tank.

Thank you very much!
Best regards, Robert

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[ReefClownMIA]

Hallo Robert,
Ja, es sieht aus das der Wasser stand im sump nicht hoch genug ist.
Könntest du den Wasser stand noch etwas hoch bringen? 5-8cm wahren schon gut.

Per manual:
Der Mindestwasserstand des Mini BK sollte 13 cm nicht unter- und 30 cm nicht überschreiten.
Der Idealwasserstand liegt zw. 20 und 22 cm.

 

[Roberto Mio]

Ok vielen Dank!
Es ist ein Red Sea Reefer 170 - ich muss schauen ob ich den Wasserstand um 5-8cm erhöhen kann oder ob das zuviel ist. Ich geh mal auf die empfohlenen 21 und taste mich heran.
Zusätzlich war nich die Eindüsungspfanne bzw. die weiße Platte verschoben und nicht zentriert. Das hat auch noch dazu beigetragen.

Ich geb Bescheid was sich geändert hat.

Danke für die Rückmeldung! [emoji106]


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[Roberto Mio]

Also, Problem gelöst!

Die Pumpe habe ich herausgenommen, alles einwandfrei. Von der Achse bis zum Lager! Lauf-Leichtigkeit in Ordnung, kein Spiel - alles ok.

Das anheben des Wasserstandes von 19cm auf knapp 22cm brachte die Säule ganz rauf und er beginnt bereits zu schäumen!

Ich hätte es nicht für möglich gehalten, dass der RE bei 19cm solche Macken macht!

lG Robert


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[Sumi]

Oh no. I've just ordered the same skimmer & planned to run it in a reefer 250 (19cm skimmer chamber depth). I've based the decision of a youtuber running the same skimmer in a rfr250 successfuly, although he has the gen2 version, and maybe that is different. Also on the website of RE that states it will work in 13-30cm water, but now after reading the owners manual as suggested by [MENTION=215914]ReefClownMIA[/MENTION], I have a feeling that what they mean is it won't get damaged between 13-30cm, but will properly work only in 20-22 cm of water (which IMO they should state in the product description as well on the web site, not only in the users manual that most people only look at after buyin).

I was wondering if would the best would be to return it before even getting it wet?

 

[slief]

Oh no. I've just ordered the same skimmer & planned to run it in a reefer 250 (19cm skimmer chamber depth). I've based the decision of a youtuber running the same skimmer in a rfr250 successfuly, although he has the gen2 version, and maybe that is different. Also on the website of RE that states it will work in 13-30cm water, but now after reading the owners manual as suggested by [MENTION=215914]ReefClownMIA[/MENTION], I have a feeling that what they mean is it won't get damaged between 13-30cm, but will properly work only in 20-22 cm of water (which IMO they should state in the product description as well on the web site, not only in the users manual that most people only look at after buyin).

I was wondering if would the best would be to return it before even getting it wet?

The 19cm skimmer chamber depth is not an issue at all. The skimmer will work fine in that depth. My only concern is your display size which is about 54 gallons. That's on the small size for this skimmer unless you plan of having a reasonably heavy fish load. Otherwise you will have to run the skimmer more to the wet side with the breakline (line where bubbles turn to foam) right at the base of the collection cup.

 

[Sumi]

The 19cm skimmer chamber depth is not an issue at all. The skimmer will work fine in that depth. My only concern is your display size which is about 54 gallons. That's on the small size for this skimmer unless you plan of having a reasonably heavy fish load. Otherwise you will have to run the skimmer more to the wet side with the breakline (line where bubbles turn to foam) right at the base of the collection cup.

Thank You!

My DT is small (although the manufacturer of the MBK160 states that it is rated for tanks up from 200l, which mine, barely, but fulfills), but I have lots of corals and fish. That's why I'm upsizing my current skimmer, because it can't keep up. But I see your point & agree that probably a time will come when it will probably just work when skimming wet or it will even just idle. I can live with that and accept it.

So the pump issue with these were remedied? I've found a german forum where 3 guys had the same issue, including the OP of this thread & even RE stepped in there. At the end of the day I believe all 3 of them sent their skimmer back because they never worked as they should (well it's not exactly easy to decide/understand what the operating range really is, as I write about this later on), but my german is not very good to be honest

Because if nothing had been done, then I see no guarantee that the skimmer will perform in 19cm of water depth (even though the specification on their website says it should, more about this later). And if this is the case, then I'd rather send it back right away without even unboxing it (it hasn't arrived yet), so I only loose the shipping costs, but don't end up with a $800 door stop*.

*That said, I understand that I didn't do my research properly about the operating depth, and misunderstood RE's website where it is stated that it would operate in 13-30cm depth, while the manual calls for 20-22cm. I have to admit I didn't look at the operating manual before my purchase as usually I only do that after I've got what I've bought, but this time I was super excited, so was thinking I'll prepare myself while the skimmer is "in flight" I think it should be clarified on the website, right at the product description what they mean by operating depth & also bring out the correct numbers from the manual right there, if those are the correct ones, so others don't make my mistake. So if we twist the things, I can see how it is my fault & there is nothing to do about it & end up with a door stop at the end of the day.

 

[slief]

Thank You!

My DT is small (although the manufacturer of the MBK160 states that it is rated for tanks up from 200l, which mine, barely, but fulfills), but I have lots of corals and fish. That's why I'm upsizing my current skimmer, because it can't keep up. But I see your point & agree that probably a time will come when it will probably just work when skimming wet or it will even just idle. I can live with that and accept it.

So the pump issue with these were remedied? I've found a german forum where 3 guys had the same issue, including the OP of this thread & even RE stepped in there. At the end of the day I believe all 3 of them sent their skimmer back because they never worked as they should (well it's not exactly easy to decide/understand what the operating range really is, as I write about this later on), but my german is not very good to be honest

Because if nothing had been done, then I see no guarantee that the skimmer will perform in 19cm of water depth (even though the specification on their website says it should, more about this later). And if this is the case, then I'd rather send it back right away without even unboxing it (it hasn't arrived yet), so I only loose the shipping costs, but don't end up with a $800 door stop*.

*That said, I understand that I didn't do my research properly about the operating depth, and misunderstood RE's website where it is stated that it would operate in 13-30cm depth, while the manual calls for 20-22cm. I have to admit I didn't look at the operating manual before my purchase as usually I only do that after I've got what I've bought, but this time I was super excited, so was thinking I'll prepare myself while the skimmer is "in flight" I think it should be clarified on the website, right at the product description what they mean by operating depth & also bring out the correct numbers from the manual right there, if those are the correct ones, so others don't make my mistake. So if we twist the things, I can see how it is my fault & there is nothing to do about it & end up with a door stop at the end of the day.

Pump issue?? The AC based Red Dragon is proven to last a decade or more if properly maintained. That pump is arguably the most coveted skimmer pump ever made. The ONLY time those pumps fail is when they are neglected. If you take the pump apart and clean it every 4 to 5 months using a 10 minute soak in vinegar followed by a good scrubbing inside and out, they will never let you down. If you neglect them, then the motors will fail eventually. I’d bet those who had real issues (which are very far and few) didn’t take care of their pumps or dosed alk, kalkwasser or calcium up stream and near their pumps.

As for operating depths, there is a wide range and a sweet spot. The sweet spot of 20-22cm means you won’t have to close the wedge pipe much. At lower sump levels, you need to close the wedge pipe more to get the water level up in the skimmer unless you have a heavier load. The more you close the wedge, the more sensitive it becomes to adjustments of the wedge so a slight turn of the wedge pipe will have more of an impact on the internal level. If your sump level is deeper, you aren’t closing the wedge pipe nearly as much and it’s less sensitive to adjustments making it a bit more easy to adjust the level since you won’t have to worry about a fraction of a turn making a big difference in the level inside the skimmer.

Now having said that, if the load is really light then the high sump depth can be important. The reason being is that the proteins in the water (dissolved organics) impact the surface tension of the water as well as the skimmers ability to foam fraction. The proteins actually cause the level in the skimmer to rise so the more proteins in the water from the fish load, the less critical the sump level is. In the absence of enough dissolved organics, you need to raise the level inside the skimmer to get the breakline up higher.

The guy in the previous post has a really small tank for this skimmer. A tank that I’d not recommend this skimmer for. Robert for example has a Redsea Reefer 170!! That is only 34 gallons and he only has a few fish! I’d never recommend this skimmer on that size tank. He couldn’t possibly ever have enough load to have this skimmer perform correctly but in his case, raising the level in the sump raised the level inside the skimmer. Not that the skimmer will ever generate much skimmate with that load but at least he got his level up inside the skimmer. Either way, that is not an issue with the pump but but instead an issue with his choice of skimmer for his tank and load. Had he had a substantial fish load in a larger tank, the level inside the skimmer would have been higher even with his original low sump level.

Keep in mind, the Mini 160 is rated from 200l to 500l and at the low end of the sizing range, it’s assumed that the user would have a heavy fish load. A heavy load is 1/2” of fish per display gallon based on industry standards which in the case of 200l/52 gallons equates to 25” of fish. So in Roberto’s case, I’m not the least bit surprised that he was having issues but make no mistake, his issue has nothing to do with the pump. Instead, it has everything to do with his choice of skimmer for his display size. And in his case, it was the wrong choice. Plain and simple. Had he asked here, we would have told him it was not a good choice. And especially with a Bubble King which are one of the few skimmer brands on the market that are truly conservatively rated and not over rated like so many other skimmers.

 

[Sumi]

Pump issue?? The AC based Red Dragon is proven to last a decade or more if properly maintained. That pump is arguably the most coveted skimmer pump ever made. The ONLY time those pumps fail is when they are neglected. If you take the pump apart and clean it every 4 to 5 months using a 10 minute soak in vinegar followed by a good scrubbing inside and out, they will never let you down. If you neglect them, then the motors will fail eventually. I'd bet those who had real issues (which are very far and few) didn't take care of their pumps or dosed alk, kalkwasser or calcium up stream and near their pumps.

As for operating depths, there is a wide range and a sweet spot. The sweet spot of 20-22cm means you won't have to close the wedge pipe much. At lower sump levels, you need to close the wedge pipe more to get the water level up in the skimmer unless you have a heavier load. The more you close the wedge, the more sensitive it becomes to adjustments of the wedge so a slight turn of the wedge pipe will have more of an impact on the internal level. If your sump level is deeper, you aren't closing the wedge pipe nearly as much and it's less sensitive to adjustments making it a bit more easy to adjust the level since you won't have to worry about a fraction of a turn making a big difference in the level inside the skimmer.

Now having said that, if the load is really light then the high sump depth can be important. The reason being is that the proteins in the water (dissolved organics) impact the surface tension of the water as well as the skimmers ability to foam fraction. The proteins actually cause the level in the skimmer to rise so the more proteins in the water from the fish load, the less critical the sump level is. In the absence of enough dissolved organics, you need to raise the level inside the skimmer to get the breakline up higher.

The guy in the previous post has a really small tank for this skimmer. A tank that I'd not recommend this skimmer for. Robert for example has a Redsea Reefer 170!! That is only 34 gallons and he only has a few fish! I'd never recommend this skimmer on that size tank. He couldn't possibly ever have enough load to have this skimmer perform correctly but in his case, raising the level in the sump raised the level inside the skimmer. Not that the skimmer will ever generate much skimmate with that load but at least he got his level up inside the skimmer. Either way, that is not an issue with the pump but but instead an issue with his choice of skimmer for his tank and load. Had he had a substantial fish load in a larger tank, the level inside the skimmer would have been higher even with his original low sump level.

Keep in mind, the Mini 160 is rated from 200l to 500l and at the low end of the sizing range, it's assumed that the user would have a heavy fish load. A heavy load is 1/2" of fish per display gallon based on industry standards which in the case of 200l/52 gallons equates to 25" of fish. So in Roberto's case, I'm not the least bit surprised that he was having issues but make no mistake, his issue has nothing to do with the pump. Instead, it has everything to do with his choice of skimmer for his display size. And in his case, it was the wrong choice. Plain and simple. Had he asked here, we would have told him it was not a good choice. And especially with a Bubble King which are one of the few skimmer brands on the market that are truly conservatively rated and not over rated like so many other skimmers.

Thank You for your long & detailed reply!

 

[slief]

Thank You for your long & detailed reply!

You are very welcome:beer:

Sometimes I can be long winded. Well, maybe more often than not but I try my best to explain things as best as possible so people can make informed decisions.

 

[Sumi]

Okay, so I want to say that the Skimmer is working perfectly in my RFR250 sump and is producing amazing foam & skimmate. The only one minor "complaint" is that the pump is pretty loud (humming) for what it is, but I guess that is normal for an AC pump afterall, even though it is even louder than my 4x more powerful 1262 Eheim return. Maybe it just needs to bed in, and will be better over time.

 

[Sumi]

Not sure if this has to do anything with the fact that it is pulling 0.25A current as per my GHL powerbar. So at 230V that is almost 60W. While the sticker on the pump says 18W. Eitherway I'm fine with it, and the quality of the foam outweighs this minor inconvinence.

 

[slief]

Okay, so I want to say that the Skimmer is working perfectly in my RFR250 sump and is producing amazing foam & skimmate. The only one minor "complaint" is that the pump is pretty loud (humming) for what it is, but I guess that is normal for an AC pump afterall, even though it is even louder than my 4x more powerful 1262 Eheim return. Maybe it just needs to bed in, and will be better over time.

The noise is not likely from the motor itself. They are typically pretty much silent. It's likely either the air intake or more likely resonance. Loosen the screws that hold the motor base to the skimmer body slightly. They should be snug but not tight. You want everything fasten so the nozzle slips through the body into the motor with relative ease. If they are too tight, the nozzle will require some force to get it in and that can cause resonance which sounds like a hum. But due to the tight nature of the motor fitting into the body, the Mini 160's aren't quite silent but they can be very quiet if you get the screws just right. The key is what I mentioned above with the nozzle being able to go through the body into the pump with relative ease.

As for the other question about the wattage, AC pumps can vary in wattage depending on head pressure. The greater the head pressure, the less current they pull which is kind of counter intuitive. While the motor is rated at 17w, when you mix air into the water, it actually reduces head pressure which increases wattage on a typical AC pump. The wattage on the label is based on a flow pump spec since that is what that motor was originally rated for when tested by 3rd party safety companies like UL in the US and their European counterparts so when run as a skimmer pump, they will draw more than the label states due to the introduction of air into the pump and and a massive reduction of head pressure as a result of the air.

That said, when you get into current less than 1 amp, there is some margin of error on how the power bars rate the wattage so while the GHL power bar is telling you 76w, my guess is that the actual draw is substantially less than that.

 

[Sumi]

The noise is not likely from the motor itself. They are typically pretty much silent. It's likely either the air intake or more likely resonance. Loosen the screws that hold the motor base to the skimmer body slightly. They should be snug but not tight. You want everything fasten so the nozzle slips through the body into the motor with relative ease. If they are too tight, the nozzle will require some force to get it in and that can cause resonance which sounds like a hum. But due to the tight nature of the motor fitting into the body, the Mini 160's aren't quite silent but they can be very quiet if you get the screws just right. The key is what I mentioned above with the nozzle being able to go through the body into the pump with relative ease.

As for the other question about the wattage, AC pumps can vary in wattage depending on head pressure. The greater the head pressure, the less current they pull which is kind of counter intuitive. While the motor is rated at 17w, when you mix air into the water, it actually reduces head pressure which increases wattage on a typical AC pump. The wattage on the label is based on a flow pump spec since that is what that motor was originally rated for when tested by 3rd party safety companies like UL in the US and their European counterparts so when run as a skimmer pump, they will draw more than the label states due to the introduction of air into the pump and and a massive reduction of head pressure as a result of the air.

That said, when you get into current less than 1 amp, there is some margin of error on how the power bars rate the wattage so while the GHL power bar is telling you 76w, my guess is that the actual draw is substantially less than that.

Awesome, Thank You Sir again for your detailed response, appreciate it!

Yeah, I'm not sure if the GHL powerbar is reporting the amps properly. I was just worried, that maybe there is something wrong going on in the pump & something is dragging on something and that is why the current draw is up. The skimmer is great and I love it, I did find that the bouble plate (diffuser, or whatever it is called) was loose a bit, and tightening that up has eliminated 80% of the noise. The rest is probably normal for a pump with such performance.

Thanks once again & I wish You Happy Holidays!

 

[slief]

Awesome, Thank You Sir again for your detailed response, appreciate it!

Yeah, I'm not sure if the GHL powerbar is reporting the amps properly. I was just worried, that maybe there is something wrong going on in the pump & something is dragging on something and that is why the current draw is up. The skimmer is great and I love it, I did find that the bouble plate (diffuser, or whatever it is called) was loose a bit, and tightening that up has eliminated 80% of the noise. The rest is probably normal for a pump with such performance.

Thanks once again & I wish You Happy Holidays!

Very glad to help.
If something was dragging inside the pump (which is pretty much impossible with that pumps design), the power draw would like go down for the reasons I mentioned above. The heavier the load on the motor, the less power it consumes which is the nature of many AC pumps. The pump in that skimmer is a beast that generates a lot of air and flow and because it's packed into a small body, some resonance is expectable. If the pump was outside the body, it would be darn near silent. But like I said, you might find that playing with the screws on the bottom that hold the pump plate to the body might quiet it down further. Noise can be a bit subjective but I've run that same model skimmer on a 100 gallon tank and was able to get really quiet by getting the screws adjusted right and the key is tightening them so that the pumps intake is aligned with the hold in the skimmer body such that the nozzle goes through the body into the pump relatively easy.