Tunze - False Advertisement?

[rtparty]

I agree people blow specs way out of proportion in just about every thing; pumps, cars, computers etc. etc. etc. but how are you supposed to buy things with any hope of fitting your needs? I think you are right that comparisons between Tunze and Vortech are comparing Apples and Oranges but they occupy a similar niche as high end pumps. Koralias are decidedly more budget pumps and even Tunze probably would rather be compared to a Vortech.

LOL, I wish I cold give you a standard to go off, but that is WAY above my pay grade. :lolspin:

If I knew of a standard, I would be hired by one of these companies or at least be a consultant to them all. (Wishful thinking, I know)

Jake Adams once gave an AWESOME talk about flow to my local club. He measured things in seconds somehow. I can't remember the exact terms he used. I just remember that the ocean normally moves at like 18X/second on the reefs. (X = the term I can't remember. Whether it be feet, meters or something else.) That was the number he was trying to recreate in his tanks. GPH didn't matter if he could get that number.

Maybe go to that standard somehow?

 

[Rosscopeco]

Just hooked up my spare mp40 next to the 6105 and the difference is ridiculous.

That all too famous vortech undertow is the water returning after a short journey of under two feet. You only need to mash up some food in the tank to see the results.

The 6105 set at 65% moves water around the entire tank and the shroud is nearly over grown with coraline.

If a pump produces a certain amount of flow at the prop then why would you use any other method to rate the pump?
If my impeller style return pump did'nt deliver a certain amount of water out one end it would be a different matter.

Is it just me?

What false advertising?

 

[ksc]

"I just remember that the ocean normally moves at like 18X/second on the reefs."

The flow in the ocean "normally" moves at different speeds thoughout the day/week/month depending on tides/moon phases/storms etc. That's a pretty silly statement..... And to keep on topic, Tunze should be repairing/replacing all of their pumps that don't meet their advertised specs within reason. Only putting out 50% of claimed flow is outright fraud....

 

[COCO]

"I just remember that the ocean normally moves at like 18X/second on the reefs."

The flow in the ocean "normally" moves at different speeds thoughout the day/week/month depending on tides/moon phases/storms etc. That's a pretty silly statement..... And to keep on topic, Tunze should be repairing/replacing all of their pumps that don't meet their advertised specs within reason. Only putting out 50% of claimed flow is outright fraud....

If you read the article the test results are not yet accepted as the industry standard. It is an idea or suggestion at most.

 

[rkaires]

There was no standard for testing. That is why AA did this test. And they weren't hiding anything, the test that they used for their other pumps wouldn't work with the 6105+. So they used the theoretical number through mathematical analysis.

The reason that they responded so quickly is because AA gave Tunze time to verify the study before they went to print.

And I will point out again. Everyone was happy with their Tunze. The Tunze 6105 vs the MP40 is a staple argument here at RC. I have not ever seen a thread where anyone suspected that the Tunze was not delivering for them and the general consensus was if you want better in tank visuals go with the MP40, if you want lower noise go with the Tunze.

This is absolutely ridiculous that people are coming out of the woodwork to attack Tunze and their product. They have been nothing but upstanding as a company goes, and are doing way more than most companies would do in the same situation. People make mistakes, including engineers.

It makes me so mad. And all these people are short sighted. You got your tank dialed in for flow, what is going to happen when you double it? I will give you a hint: ReAquascaping and/or dead corals and/or sandstorms.



Nothing about the Tunze pump changed, it didn't magically lose flow overnight, if it has been working for you, great, don't change anything because you feel entitled. You received the product that they built. their cost to build the product did not go down because their theoretical limits weren't the real world limits. The only thing that has changed is your perception of the pump, but it shouldn't change because as I will state again, it has worked for you.


There are a million and one factors that go into what makes a reef tanks successful, and within those factors there are multiple solutions. This leads me to believe though that flow rate is not as important as some people make it out to be. What is probably more important is flow type and effective use of that flow type.

Very well stated. Having used Tunze products 15+ years I can say that quality and customer service has been excellent. I believe in the end they will do the rite thing and I will not be in a rush to pass judgment.

 

[Rosscopeco]

Well boys and girls it has begun.
Go to the website and look for subtle changes to the specs.
Output now = ejection.

There is nothing wrong with the specs stated by Tunze IMO. They produce so many GPH at the prop. What happens after that is why I prefer them over the vortech I own.

 

[doctorgori]

...on the one hand: informative thread
OTOH, not 100% sure how much "relative value-add" a $400 Powerhead has over a $60 one...
not saying a Tunze isn't better, just honestly wondering if the cost is totally justified "proportionally" to the rest of the other equipment...

Eitherway, a "Raised glass" to everyone getting thier moneys worth (or due compensation) regardless

 

[Mindflux]

Well boys and girls it has begun.
Go to the website and look for subtle changes to the specs.
Output now = ejection.

There is nothing wrong with the specs stated by Tunze IMO. They produce so many GPH at the prop. What happens after that is why I prefer them over the vortech I own.

I'm not seeing the changes on the US site yet, but am glad to see them starting to happen.

 

[James77]

Just hooked up my spare mp40 next to the 6105 and the difference is ridiculous.
That all too famous vortech undertow is the water returning after a short journey of under two feet. You only need to mash up some food in the tank to see the results.
The 6105 set at 65% moves water around the entire tank and the shroud is nearly over grown with coraline.
If a pump produces a certain amount of flow at the prop then why would you use any other method to rate the pump?
If my impeller style return pump did'nt deliver a certain amount of water out one end it would be a different matter.

Is it just me?

What false advertising?

No, I have had the same experience running both Vortech and Tunze. 2 Tunzes with their stock covers on at 100% is unbelievable in how much the tanks moves and crap gets pulled form the rocks. The vortech has great flow and nice and gentle, but it did not seem to have the smae impact in the tank. With the 6205 shroud on the Tunze 6105 and the Vortech right next to each other at the same height and pointing straight into the tank, the flow felt nearly the same.

 

[James77]

I'm not seeing the changes on the US site yet, but am glad to see them starting to happen.

It really did not take them that long at all. The most irritating part of this thread is the instantaneous accustions of flase advertising and deception. Changing websites and thinking how to handle this kind of thing does not happen overnight. Tunze is far from some massive corporation....they are actually a very small company.

 

[Mindflux]

It really did not take them that long at all. The most irritating part of this thread is the instantaneous accustions of flase advertising and deception. Changing websites and thinking how to handle this kind of thing does not happen overnight. Tunze is far from some massive corporation....they are actually a very small company.

I'm on your side with this. People are overreacting and trying to get something out of Tunze beyond a fix.

I'm waiting for my 6055 to come in, which isn't an 'affected' model, but I can't wait to compare it to my MP10 ES.. The MP10 is nice but the motor noise is bothersome at times.

Thanks for being a voice of sanity in this thread.

 

[rysher]

You're missing the point. People are upset because they paid a premium for a product that was not as advertised. Obviously the Tunze's in question work. Obviously they work well. Obviously the company is still a good company. The fact of the matter is, people paid for a product they did not receive.

I have no problem with Tunze at all, but no one can deny they did not put out the product they advertised. That's all there is to this discussion. It's obvious the pumps in question aren't a detriment to anyone's tanks and I doubt anyone is claiming they lost livestock because the numbers on the box aren't correct. check this thread, already looking for compensation, blamed tunze for it's false gph rating and claimed it killed $2500 worth of corals, wants a refund for his 6305 and free future upgrades http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2044227. i told you, this is the new modus operandi, complain about the tiniest fault you can find about a company, make a mountain out of it then look for some FREEBIES!

When someone pays money for something (especially paying a premium), you better damn well believe most of them are going to want to get what they paid for.

it is not like tunze didnt test their product to find out their pumps GPH, tunze tested and calculated their pumps GPH. However it didnt correspond to vortechs result using vortechs method of testing. Where's the fraud in that?
Both companies tested and calculated GPH using 2 different procedure and you expect an exact result??? only math is an exact scine where you can get an exact result down to the tenths of millions, moving water isnt an exact sscience so you'll always get descripancies in the results.

Technically, they don't have to change the advertising as their numbers are mathematically provable in a court of law.

techinically they dont have to and i agree with you, tunze conducted their own tests. you can cry "Fraud" if tunze didnt conduct any test and just guesstimate their numbers.

This is exactly what I have been trying to figure out. If there has been no standardized way of testing flow why is everyone so bent out of shape about what happened here

because they want freebies, go to a restaurant/store etcc,, find the tiniest fault you can find, complain about it, make it big and the company bends to you and gives you freebies.

I agree with Vivek,

The problem is that there is some misunderstanding that the result is the only way to measure the flowrates. And some people believe suddenly the test conducted is the standard method, which is not.

ding ding ding, we got a winner!!!

Tunze should be repairing/replacing all of their pumps that don't meet their advertised specs within reason.

yes they are, and a new "Retrofittanle shroud is coming within the nxt 6 months.

Only putting out 50% of claimed flow is outright fraud....

i think you need reading comprehension 101, and in my opinion if you really keep on repeating the fraud thing, maybe you'll get a freebie!!!

 

[rysher]

People are overreacting and trying to get something out of Tunze beyond a fix.

i've been saying this all along, people are darn opportunistic leeches.
find the tiniest fault you vcan find, complain about it, make it big in the internet to damage a companies reputation and ask for freebies so you'll stop.

example:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2044227
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041681&highlight=reefcleaners
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2038403&highlight=liveaquaria

 

[Mindflux]

i've been saying this all along, people are darn opportunistic leeches.
find the tiniest fault you vcan find, complain about it, make it big in the internet to damage a companies reputation and ask for freebies so you'll stop.

example:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2044227
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041681&highlight=reefcleaners
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2038403&highlight=liveaquaria

To be fair I had a near identical experince with Reefcleaners (your second link).. the box took 2 days to get here with over $300 in livestock for my local reef club. A LOT of die off, though John took care of those in partial refunds. It really soured the experience for us though.

 

[cham]

I have owned both Tunze and Vortech equipment and at some point had to deal with both of their customer service/service department for repairs.

Both companies get a "AAA" for both honesty, integrity and going beyond the call of duty to help me when I had an issue. My experience with Tunze personally and from reading posts from other reefers suggests to me that they are great people with a problem that they had the integrity to admit a fault in (this is rare these days, hats off to Tunze) and instead of blowing smoke, creating a cover up or starting a blame game they say...hey, looks like we have an issue. No problem we'll correct it. Hats off to you fellas.

I'm a big fan of Vortechs and they work perfectly for my tank but that doesn't mean they work perfectly for every tank. Tunze and Vtech have very different flow patters, some need x while others need y. To say that one pump is the "best" is just silly because there are so many different applications where both could be the best.

Pick the one that works for you and go with it. Neither pump or customer service will let you down.

 

[reefsafe]

Technically, they don't have to change the advertising as their numbers are mathematically provable in a court of law.

That is simply not correct. The numbers are based on a mathematical formula that has been determined to be incorrect. The fact that they used a faulty formula and that formula produced those numbers does not change the fact that the numbers are incorrect.

The FTC defines "false advertising" as a "means of advertisement other than labeling, which is misleading in a material respect; and in determining whether an advertisement is misleading, there shall be taken into account (among other things) not only representations made or suggested by statement, word, design, device, sound, or any combination thereof, but also the extent to which the advertisement fails to reveal facts material in the light of such representations or material with respect to consequences which may result from the use of the commodity to which the advertisement relates under the conditions prescribed in said advertisement, or under such conditions as are customary or usual."

 

[COCO]

Did Tunze advertise? When?

 

[Beenalongtime79]

Wow, quite the fallout from that article, but it is good to see that Tunze is attempting to rectify the situation... I'm very happy with my Tunze 6100's though, so looks like I'll be keeping them instead of upgrading to a newer, "lower flow" model.

Vortechs are great pumps, but I do agree, I hate the whine on those things as they wind up and down. Otherwise, they seem to be great pumps!

 

[JG1]

Did Tunze advertise? When?

I guess you never been here :hmm2:

http://www.tunze.com/149.html?&L=1&C=US&user_tunzeprod_pi1[predid]=-infoxunter025

 

[rysher]

The numbers are based on a mathematical formula that has been determined to be incorrect.

when was the formula used by tunze determined to be incorrect, before or after the new test results came out?