UGH!!! My erectus keep dying :-(

[laurarca]

I finally had a batch of erectus fry that are now 2 weeks and 3 days old. I started out with appox. 25...I am down to 8...I researched for hours and went upon sought out advice, and it's not working...Here are my details below...ANY help with my boo-boos would be GREATLY appreciated and I thank you for your time in advance...

I am attaching some photos to show you as to what the heck I may be doing wrong. The most frustrating thing that happened JUST NOW is as I am watching my seahorses happily eating...all 9 of them... one decides after he ate a few brine, he twitched a few times, then sank to the bottom and died...what the heck??? He was getting so big!!

To help you see my set up I tried to show as follows:

The FRY TANK:

-5 gallon
-aqueon HOB filter with sponge covering intake, pantyhose covering the sponge so help prohibit uptake of brine and seahorses.
-plastic plant hitching post from petCo

-I turn the power off when I feed so the brine and seahorses don't swirl everywhere
-I add 5ml a DAY of Formalin 3
-I siphon the bottom as best I can of detritus with a turkey baster and replace with aged saltwater
-I feed them enriched brine 5 times a day
-I now turn the light off at night to give them a day/night schedule

The ENRICHMENT BBS Tank:

-5 gallon
-just an air hose, no airstone
-a 1 pound piece of liverock to hold the tube down
-3-4 zebra turbo snails because that tank is FILTHY!! How the heck do you keep it clean?
-I keep them in lightly green water due to adding DT's phyto plankton
-I have brine that are getting BIG

When I feed, I take out the brine with the turkey baster, put it in the brine net and rinse under tap water. I invert the net and feed to the seahorses.

If I left anything out or can do something different, please let me know.

Laura

 

[Peka]

First of all, don't be so upset with yourself because raising seahorse babies is really hard. The first suggestion that I have is more quantity of water. I use a 20 gallon long and silicone a divider in approx 1/3 of the length, that way I can use both sides of the divider when the horses are small and when they get larger.

I would not keep snails or live rock in with them. Hydroids can be a problem with all of the brine you add to the tank. Some people use the greenwater method and some do not. I choose not to. You say it's filthy in there which could be part of your problem. I also remove any uneaten brine and it doesn't have a chance to grow and get bigger in the fry tank.

Think Sterile environment for raising them. Along with siphoning several times a day and replacing removed water with clean, I also break my tanks down completely once a week and sterilize the tanks and equipment.

I hope some of that info helps. Remember though, the way one person does it does not always work for another. You will have to develop your own technique based on what seems to work for you.

most of all, don't get discouraged.. each batch teaches you something new.

 

[laurarca]

Thank you Peka!! I have the snails and liverock in with the BBS enrichment tank....that tank get so dirty!!... there is nothing in with the babies...I am dosing 5ml of Formalin 3 daily, as I was told that was OK because I still see signs of twitching, which means they are getting attacked by these hydroids?? How often do you change your babies water and how much? Doesn't too much upset the biological balance?

Again...THANK YOU!!!

 

[Peka]

I'm sorry, I misread your post.....

When I enrich, I use glass jars.. I put as much brine in as I will feed out and enrich it in the glass jar (which are cleaned and sterilized between uses)....

As far as water changes... I siphon the old food and poop out several times a day and add clean fresh saltwater. I also use seeded sponge filters in my fry tanks for the biological filtration. Every 7 days, they get a 100% water change. Don't dose too much formalin, day 1, 3 and 5 and when ever you see them scratch as long as it's not ammonia causing it... formalin should be dosed at 1ml per 10 gallons.... check your ammonnia in the tank, it's another reason for scratching...

 

[rayjay]

As Beth mentioned, don't be disillusioned just yet as most of us took many trys to accomplish any degree of success. In fact, for me, it was the 10th attempt to have a successful batch.
The number one thing that helps success is keeping the nursery extremely clean.
Some do daily cleanings, while others, depending on their type of fry system, only do a major cleaning once a week.
I don't have a system that can keep fry water in good shape so for me, the simplest way was to use gallon wide mouth jars and I do a total cleaning and water change with new food every 48 hours.
Cleanliness extends to the bbs and enrichment also because bacteria can develop there and affect survival of the fry.
Best to enrich in separate containers using NEW water and NEW enrichment for each of the two 12 hour enrichment stages.
As for formalin, I quit using the formalin for the twitching and hatch rates never decreased at all and indeed many of the twitchers were survivors even without treatment.
Ammonia is another thing that causes twitching so be aware that just a hint of ammonia gives a similar result.
Most of us when we start, look for basic needs and we adapt what we have or can get to find a way to succeed, and there are a lot of different success stories out there.
Good Luck, and don't give up.

 

[ssantac]

I agree with rayjay and peka...dont get discouraged. I'm on my 2nd attempt at raising fry. Out of 110ish...I now only have about 20, and from my 1st batch I only have 1.

For me the problem with the 1st batch was ammonia because of the high amount of food decaying, and too small water changes. The 2nd batch I think was food/seahorse density.

It sounds to me that ammonia might be the problem with your set up. I know Im doing overkill right now, but in my 5 gal with my 1 lone survivor, I do 1gal/day water changes at least. In my 10gal with the others I do 2gal/day. I vacuum into an open top gal. jug so I know how much I'm doing, and I can see if I suck up any fry accidentally. For my vacuum I went to walmart and got a Micro Brush Vacuum Attachment kit for like$9..and some hose to fit it at the hardware store. Works way better and more precise than the baster(I did that at first too!) Also, I vacuum 2x a day.

Also with the BBS, I do like rayjay said and use new clean containers each time I enrich. I use the 2ltr. bottle method though..its cheap and readily available. I have about 4-5 bottles I keep in circulation.

SO...as a noob...I'm still working out the bugs also, but thats what I know so far. FWIW.

Almost forgot...I dont know if you've read it or not, but on seahorse.org, this article has helped me out a lot...besides asking question here of course... http://www.seahorse.org/library/articles/scaleerectus.pdf

 

[laurarca]

You all have been SO helpful and please don't let me be a pest with questions, But I just lost another baby and it was right after a cleaning and water change...:-(...I see now I am really messing up with the BBS enriching tank...I was leaving all the BBS in there for a couple of days and then adding DT's to enrich them...that's were I added liverock and snails to help keep it clean...I guess that is a major boo-boo!! So, right now I am hatching a batch of BBS...after 24 hours, they hatch...do I leave them bubbling in there for how long after they hatch? Can I feed them to the babies? When do I move them into the enrichment tank? How long do you leave them in the enrichment tank? Rayjay...I see you say "two 12 hour enrichment stages"...what does that mean?

How does my baby tank look? I have a HOB with a few new sponges to keep the circulation at a good speed. I have no carbon...I have a sock over the intake sponge so the BBS do not get sucked in...I turn off the circulation when feeding so they have a chance to snick them...am I doing OK? I am using a 5g now because there are only 7 babies left...

Sorry for all the questions...you are all the best and I thank you...

Laura

 

[laurarca]

@ssantac....I have read seahorse.org, but some of the specifics are not mentioned. Their rearing tanks are awesome!! I would never be able to copy those. I hit my thumb with a hammer everytime I pound a nail..;-)

 

[SaylorsReef]

After the brine has hatched and about 12 hours old it should be rinsed really well with tap water, then placed into a clean container with saltwater and your enrichment solution. Brine shrimp doesn’t have a mouth until about 12 hours after hatch, so enriching before then is useless.

After the first 12 hours of enrichment it is recommended to rinse the brine and enrich for another 12 hours before feeding to the fry. Brine shrimp is filthy, so always rinse the brine right before feeding.

Also, I would get yourself some Dan’s Feed for enrichment instead of the DTs. It can be found at www.seahorsesource.com.

 

[rayjay]

I'd like to enlarge further on SR's comments on the enrichment.
As mentioned, the brine shrimp nauplii are born without a mouth and anus so cannot be gut loaded with enrichment, only coated, and such coating is virtually useless as it washes off when you place the food in the tank.
Artemia hatch out at different rates depending on many things like temperature light intensity, and if they are decapped or not.
Once I can remove the aeration for a minute and see live nauplii in the container, I let it sit for a couple more minutes and then siphon off the live and net the hatched ones before replacing the water and aerating for a couple more hours and repeating the process.
Because I only hatch out at room temperatures, my hatching doesn't begin in any appreciable amounts until about 20 to 22 hours, so I wait a full 24 hours to remove nauplii, but keep hatching out the remaining ones over the next 10 to 20 hours. It's amazing how many keep hatching out late.
Now because of the varied hatching times, and, because the growth of the nauplii varies from one to another, it can be as early as the 12 hours, but as much as 24 hours before the nauplii molt to the second Instar stage where they have developed a mouth and anus.
That coupled with the varied hatchout rate means that starting the enriching process too soon will leave a quantity of nauplii not fully enriched because they hatch/develop too late.
I am sure that even waiting a full 24 hours after hatchout like I do, still leaves some that haven't developed early enough, but I will get most of them enriched properly though.
Nauplii take a good 24 hrs to enrich, unlike juveniles and adults which can be done in a matter of a few hours, and unfortunately the water and enrichment degrade quite fast, requiring the change of both after the first 12 hours, in order to lessen the growth of bacteria that can quickly kill the fry.
For enrichment, DT's is better than nothing and better than just nanno, but you would be doing your fry a favour by enriching with Dan's Food with Beta Glucan like SR recommended already. The fatty acid profile is much higher and it also contains added ingredients that DT's can't provide.
I can't comment on how effective your set up would be because I never tried anything like it. I tried many designs starting with kriesel type up to modified small tanks but never succeeded with any of them. I ended up using jars instead.
Some links you can peruse for ideas:
EWAN'S POPPED
SEAHORSE FRY PAGE
BRINE SHRIMP PAGE

 

[ssantac]

@ssantac....I have read seahorse.org, but some of the specifics are not mentioned. Their rearing tanks are awesome!! I would never be able to copy those. I hit my thumb with a hammer everytime I pound a nail..;-)

I agree with you...but I used it for some of the basic info in this article in particular like amount of water change, how often to feed, vacuuming, etc...

Also looking at you set up, something that concerns me is the HOB filter for the size of the tank. I may be wrong, but I would be worried about 'beating up' the fry with the return flow. With a tank design like that it doesnt seem there is anywhere to rest out of the major flow. I only have an air line with no stone in both my tanks for flow/aeration. When I turn my lights on for the day I'll take pics of what my set ups look like.

With BBS I move them into new water about every 24hrs. too. I also rinse them b4 I feed them to the fry. IDK how everyone else does it but I notice with just the brine net a lot escape down the drain, so I always rinse them using the net and a coffee filter. I use Selcon to enrich mine as thats whats available locally. I also went thru this entire website(its not real big) and used it for a baseline guide to how I do my BBS.
http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/enrichment-selco-c108.html

 

[rayjay]

A further note on enrichment is taken from the Artemia section of Manual on the Production and Use of Live Food for Aquaculture

The enrichment emulsion is usually added in consecutive doses of 300 mg.l-1 every 12 h with a strong aeration (using airstones) being required so as to maintain dissolved oxygen levels above 4 mg.l-1 (the latter being necessary to avoid mortalities). The enriched nauplii are harvested after 24 h (sometimes even after 48 h), thoroughly rinsed and then fed directly or stored at below 10°C so as to minimize the metabolism of HUFA prior to administration, i.e. HUFA levels being reduced by 0-30% after 24 h at 10°C

NOTE: OPEN ENDED AIR LINES RECOMMENDED INSTEAD OF AIRSTONES when done on small scale basis like we hobbyists use.
In our "small" systems, bubbles from airstones can cause skimming of the enrichment from the culture as well as sometimes damage the nauplii.
Selco emulsions were the old standby for enrichment but are being displaced by other products like Algamac 3050 which has a higher DHA content than even Selco DHA has, and Algamac Protein Plus.
The advantage of them in addition to the higher nutrients is that as they powder/flake formation and can be stored in a freezer, they keep much longer than the short term lifespan of the emulsions.
The Dan's Food mixes use both of these Algamac products as the base and then are improved with other additions as well.
It is also more economical for me to buy even here in Canada as cost of mailing a package of it to Canada was only a couple of bucks US.

 

[laurarca]

You guys are awesome...I do have Dan's feed and their scrub brush vacuum hose along with decapsulated brine on the way!! Abbie told me I might not make it this time around with the fry, but sunny days are coming. I am taking all your recommendations here, along with Dan and Abbie's and heading to the attic for my 20g high tank...it's a start. If you don't hear from me in a while, you'll know I fell through the ceiling...;-)

 

[laurarca]

ok...I have spent the last 4 hours trying to set up a 20g high...I am working on the last amount of salt water mix...what type of filtration/circulation would you use? I do not want ANY form of hydroids or bacteria to be transferred...or should I just use the HOB Aqueon that is running in the 5g fry tank presently?

I will NOT do anything until I hear from you!!

Laura

 

[rayjay]

Unfortunately I can't help you out on that matter as I don't use filtration of any kind for my fry nurseries, only water changes every 48 hours.
For circulation I use open ended rigid air lines.

 

[ssantac]

I would be leary of the 20 gallon due to size. Depending on your situation water changes could be expensive. For me I dont have a RO/DI unit...I also wanted a stable saltwater, so I buy it from the store. Its not too expensive, but when the drive and time is considered it adds up. The method I'm following right now says about 30% to 50%water change/week. I had about 18 fry in a 20 tall with 10g sump. I was probably overfeeding, but again to get the food/fry density where I thought it was right I couldnt keep up with water changes. Thats how I ended up with 1 out of my 1st batch.

But if thats not a problem for you, then I might consider doing the HOB on one side of the tank, and an open air line on the other side. Then you get a faux kreisel.

This was my 20tall set up:

Heres my 5 with Mo..short for last of the mohicans

and heres my 10 gal

and heres my BBS set up

 

[rayjay]

I haven't got into the details of the set ups, but there are people on the "org" with larger nurseries than that and it works fine for them.
Many are based on methods that Dan Underwood of seahorsesource.com as Dan is VERY helpful and shares his information more than any other breeder.
I would like to set up a large system like Dan's but on Canada's pension with no other pension to help, it's not possible when my hobby is eating up every extra cent just to keep in it on a reduced scale.
If you search out posts by Dan on the "org" I'm sure you will find the pictures and descriptions of how he manages his nurseries.

 

[Peka]

I use 20 gallon long tanks with dividers siliconed in. Yes, it is a lot of water for water changes but that's part of having babies...

 

[laurarca]

OK guys...tomorrow I will take pictures of the new set up...I spoke with Abbie Underwood for a while today and she answered as many questions as I could deal out!! They are the nicest people I know and you all have been very helpful here also. ssantac...thanks for the photos!! I see having a drilled tank and a sump is a big plus...that's also how Dan Underwood guides us on seahorse.org...if all else fails, that's the way I might have to go...but baby steps and the support of you all will hopefully get me through!! And rayjay...Abbie does know you and told me how helpful you have always been. @ Peka...my goodness!! How do you ahve time for all those tanks!! Do you have them in your house???

 

[Peka]

And rayjay...Abbie does know you and told me how helpful you have always been.

@ Peka...my goodness!! How do you ahve time for all those tanks!! Do you have them in your house???

Rayjay is the best.... he is always helpfull......

Don't ask Abbie about me.. she might tell you the truth about me......LOL

Yes, all the tanks are in my house. My basement is set up as a seahorse nursery.... I had 8 extra circuits wired down there for the electricity. I have 3of the display tanks in my living room and kitchen...... as far as time..... I would like some more in a day if someone could arrange that....:lolspin: