uneven surface

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12807578#post12807578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Who is doing the "post attacking" here? It certainly appears to be you.

You have attacked me and added YOUR opinion with no proof or discussion of any kind other than to say "it is fine".
I could say, "your intentions are good, but your understanding of the physics at play is severally lacking. This is basic physics here. It is not even up for argument. I hate to call you out in public like that but your post is riddled with errors in logic and understanding." but I would not, because it sounds like a "post attack" even if not meant to be one, and besides someone else already contributed it. Ironically, Bean and I make a lot of very similar points, and yet whatever does not match Bean's conceptions exactly is suddenly "severally lacking".
FWIW, here is an exerpt from a a current tank manufacturer's warranty. It does not say exactly what either I, JRaquatics, or Bean would expect.

SET UP INSTRUCTIONS
All aquariums must be set up on commercially manufactured stands only. A sheet of 3/4" styrofoam (reaching completely side-to-side and front-to-back) must be placed between the tank and the surface of the stand.
http://www.glasscages.com/?sAction=AqWarranty
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12808132#post12808132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GIJOE007
calkulon...

...great first hand advice :D

cheers
Yes, go for the bondo! Good idea, with the voice of experience. It may be a little messy, but not any more than sanding or planing the top of the rails could be.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12807893#post12807893 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by calkulon
I have been using bondo in woodworking for about thirty years. It is a fine choice for a small repair such as this. It is much faster than wood filler for filling holes and cracks. It dries in minutes.
I have used it as a grain filler before.. but never to make a custom bed for a tank :)
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12808153#post12808153 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
Bean and I make a lot of very similar points, and yet whatever does not match Bean's conceptions exactly is suddenly "severally lacking".

It has NOTHING to with matching a "conception". You posted patently wrong information and I pointed it out (several times).

You have conveniently sidestepped and keep attempting to slightly change the topic.

FWIW, here is an excerpt from a a current tank manufacturer's warranty. It does not say exactly what either I, JRaquatics, or Bean would expect.
If you notice in my previous posts, I stated that MOST manufacturers DO NOT recommend (and advise against) FOAM. I did not say ALL MANUFACTURERS. I was VERY CLEAR win that regard. Glass cages is ONE of the exceptions. Again, please read EXACTLY what I have posted above before you try to portray my comments as wrong.

The overall use of FOAM in the full sheet configuration was only a secondary topic.

The PRIMARY topic of discussion was that YOU recommended that foam be put under ONLY the corners and also stated that manufacturers recommended the same. I pointed out that it was bad advice and that no manufacturer recomends such a practice.

Again, please lets keep the comments in context to what has been said here. You are taking snippets of comments out of context.
 
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Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesnt see eye to eye with bean...seems to be plenty :p

best of luck ukspice, put a little more elbow gress into it and your stand will be nice and ready for your tank. keep us updated & hope it all works out.

cheers
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12810413#post12810413 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GIJOE007
Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesnt see eye to eye with bean...seems to be plenty :p

Instead of making obtuse comments, why not kindly explain where I am wrong using factual information?

Does that fact that two of you do not see "eye to eye" with me make me wrong?
 
After reading this entire thread, I tend to follow Beans advice on this. I might also state that number of posts has nothing to do with this. Bean has a very direct delivery which can come off as authoritarian, but 99 times out of 100 he is on the money. listen and read his words carefully, he chooses them with precision.

On the use of foam... Foam in just the corners is a bad idea.

As pertaining to masking a bump... get a sander and use it... there should be no bumps or trash or a stand when placing a tank. NOTHING beats a smooth level stand.

If there is a 1/16" gap under a large tank, all the foam in the world will not fully level that tank. The physics of foam is, the tensions that were there to begin with will be identical do to compression/non compression of the foam. will the gap be closed... sure... to the naked eye... will the reefer feel better... maybe... for a while... keep a mop nearby.

The best solutions is putting the careful work into building a stand. Fix the imperfections using any of the self leveling methods discussed above, based on your skill/patience level.

I do not want to see this thread go the same route as the overflow thread did months ago. Lets keep it focused on the OT and the problem a fellow reefer is having... solve the issue, and then move on to other DIY threads.
 
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we had the same stand issue...so we put a piece of plywood on top...then a coat of thinset, then a giant piece of granite. Then we pressed, jiggled and begged until it was level.

:)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12805709#post12805709 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
That's 58 gallons not 180 gallons. Personally I listened to the manufacture of the tank, they should know the most about their product. AGA stands aren't perfect either and do you see them palcing foam on them or advising people to do so. I am not here to argue just to state what the manufacture suggested when I spoke to them about my AGA 180gal on a custom stand.

Gallonage makes no difference. Height and bottom trim surface area decide pressure. The difference between a 21" deep tank and a 24" deep tank aren't all that great.

I can calculate the difference in PSI if you want, but its not going to be all that big.




As to foam in corners, yeah, bad idea. Foam over the whole bottom, I don't think it makes a difference either way. The stuff commonly used is so rigid that it doesn't deform at all.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12810462#post12810462 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Instead of making obtuse comments, why not kindly explain where I am wrong using factual information?

Does that fact that two of you do not see "eye to eye" with me make me wrong?
Actually, Bean, it often does make you wrong. Even when you have the basics right, you concentrate on defending your mistakes, or re-interpreting other people's comments, hoping no one looks back to see what they actually said. That is one of the ways in which you really can be wrong while using "factual information". You are manipulating it, not using it. And often you are disguising your opinion or mistaken impressions as "factual information".

You often have some good ideas, and sound suggestions, so it is a shame when people dismiss what you say because of the defensive way you say it. A little pointed discussion or repartee is good because it brings out things someone forgot to say, or clears up a point that can easily be misunderstood. Too much of it, and it's just a contest, no longer an exchange and sharing of information.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12814178#post12814178 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rhodophyta
Actually, Bean, it often does make you wrong. Even when you have the basics right, you concentrate on defending your mistakes, or re-interpreting other people's comments, hoping no one looks back to see what they actually said. That is one of the ways in which you really can be wrong while using "factual information". You are manipulating it, not using it. And often you are disguising your opinion or mistaken impressions as "factual information".

Excuse me? Now you are going to toss it out there that [SIC] "i have the basics right but am still wrong!". Funny, but last I checked, you have yet to show where I was wrong and instead keep dancing around the subject.

I will kindly ask again. If you feel that I am wrong, then please show where I am wrong. Please stop trying to divert the subject and discredit me with straw arguments.

I have been very consistent in what I have said and have said the same thing over and over. I have even URGED you and others to GO READ what I have said and comment IN CONTEXT. That is hardly [sic] "hoping nobody looks back and sees what I said". Frankly, to suggest that I have changed my argument or hope that nobody looks back and see what I have posted is laughable.

I have certainly NOT re-interpreted what you or anybody has said.

You advocated the use of FOAM under the CORNERS of glass trimmed tanks. I said it was very bad advice and gave factual reasons why. Basic physics dictates that doing such a thing is a very bad idea.

You said that the manufacturers recommend putting foam under the corners of the tanks. I said that was patently untrue. I said that MOST (not all) manufacturers DO NOT recommend ANY foam be placed under the tank and INSIST it rest on a rigid surface. My comments were not ambiguous, they were very clear.

You said that placing a modern tank on a perfectly flat (hard) surface was dangerous. I said that was patently untrue. A perfectly flat and hard surface is perfect for a tank, trimmed or untrimmed.

You confused the construction methods between legacy and modern tanks. You attempted to use that logic to bolster your point regarding foam. I corrected what you said, as you had it pretty much opposite of what is true.

You tried to say that I suggested that NO MANUFACTURERS recommend foam. I said nothing of the sort and pointed out that I DID in fact understand that SOME manufacturers advocate the use of foam.

If you can show how I have "manipulated the facts", or "have disguised opinion" as fact, then please do so. Please point out where I have changed my argument, back-peddled or been defensive?

Please lets not make this personal, you made statements and gave advice that is suspect. I kindly tried to set the record straight.

Have a nice evening. I have to get back to work :)
 
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can we not all just move the [profanity] on already...please for the love of GOD!!! :wave:
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12815890#post12815890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GIJOE007
can we not all just move the F#%@ on already...please for the love of GOD!!! :wave:

Amen
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12815890#post12815890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GIJOE007
can we not all just move the F#%@ on already...please for the love of GOD!!! :wave:

In all honesty GIJOE007, your contributions to this thread are part of what has kept us from staying on track. Most of your comments have been snipes or barbs towards me.

I have strived to keep this thread on topic and kind. I have replied in context to each post directed at me and offered factual information on the topic. The thread is full of relevant information, much of it posted by me and a handfull of other helpful people.

This topic comes up on a rather frequent basis. The use of "foam" is frequnetly advocated as an "accepted" method of supporting a tank. Everybody knows somebody that recomends putting foam under tanks of any shape or size. The problem is that the advice is passed along with little understanding of the physics involved. This (like many things in our hobby) have evolved into something aking to "urban legend" or "snake oil" type remedies. We all pass along the advice without really understanding the ramifications.

I.E. It sounds like a good idea, so it must be a good idea.

Have a warped stand? Put foam under the tank!
Have an uneven floor? Put foam under the tank!
Etc.

What several of us have tried to point out is that there is no substitute for a proper stand. FOAM certainly has pros and cons, but is simply not needed if the stand is properly built. Furthermore, there are certainly instances where the foam may do more harm than good.

Trimless tanks (glass or acrylic) need to rest on a prefectly flat surface to prevent point loading of the bottom panel. Because a perfectly flat surface is hard to ensure, we use foam under the panel to compensate for minor imperfections that would point load the panel. Because the entire panel makes contact with the foam, the load is distributed over the entire surface of the foam.

Lets take a trimless 180 gallon tank for example. Its finished weight is in the 2000 pound neighborhood. It has a bottom surface area of 1728 square inches. That is about 1.15 PSI on the FOAM. It rests upon. The foam (with regard to the load) is rigid. Leaning on the tank, loading one side full of rock or a slightly warped stand will have little effect on the distribution of the load. The foam will act as a rigid structure to support the tank.

Now lets look at that same tank with a 1" wide bottom trim. That equates to a contact area of 192 square inches. That equates to a load of over 10 PSI on the foam. Shifting the weight in the tank by loading one side with more rock than the other, leaning on the tank, or an uneven stand can easily move that load along the perimeter of the tank. Depending on the density of the foam, it may or may not act like a rigid structure with regard to the load on it. That is exactly what we do not want! But lets look at one more piece of the puzzle.

In the end a properly built stand is the best option :)
 
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Please post within the context of this thread and its subject matter, or leave. The manner in which you post clearly has the purpose to be insulting and inflammatory at a personal level. Most of your posts in this thread have been of that pretense. I am starting to tire of it.
 
I just can't wait to see who gets the last word in! The way it's going, the mods will probably have to split this thread.
 
This is a "Beartrap" or "Landmine" topic, it always ends this way because there no data on the subject.

Having fallen into this same "Beartrap" myself, I spent MANY hours researching it.......

1. Other than this application I was not able to find another application that uses "foam" under direct constant loading.

2. As discussed, the glass tanks are primarily perimeter supported, and the acrylic need even load distribution throughout.

3. The "foam" people speak of and use varries GREATLY. Some use open cell, others closed cell. The Engineering properties varies with each product and performs under loading differently.

4. There is very little data on their behavior under constant loading of these materials. Especially with failure due to fatique.

5. Foams and rigid insulations commonly mentioned and used were originaly designed for insulation purposes only, they were designed with minimal impact forces in mind, not constant loading.

6. As the tank gets bigger, the stakes get larger. As psi increases, what may work for smaller tanks, may not for larger. See the chart below I quickly threw together at the time to illustrate this.

7. Semi-Rigid bodies such as these materials, do not follow the same Engineering theory than that of the rigid bodies we are familliar with. The way the bonds are arranged, the cell structures that are used to carry this load is difficult to obtain.

I found this quote in a preview of a journal article I that uses words other than my own.

"On the Crushing Stress of Open Cell Foams

The compressive response of many foams is characterized by an initial linearly elastic regime which is terminated by instability. For open cell foams instability leads to localized buckling and collapse of zones of cells. Local collapse in these zones is terminated by contact between cell ligaments. "


The main problem with this discussion is: Nobody can really tell until it is tested. You see, foam is a semi-rigid body and varies with different compositions. Its at the point that it is settled and compressed that concerns me. Discussions of dynamic loading, sheer strength betweem the two planes, a failure due to fatique have never been considered, especially factors of safety.

In my research before, during and since the last discussion on the subject, I dug through each of my Mechanical Engineering textbooks looking for a similar application, researched hours of articles on the subject, even consulted with several of my peers who are also Mechanical Engineers on the subject, even going as far as to ask the wife of a friend who is a Materials Engineer with Lockheed Martin. All had the same response I have, "Maybe, but I wouldn't risk it."

This is what I have discovered in my research on the subject and thought I would share it with you guys, please use it to ponder to make your own decision.

Personally, I would focus your energy on quality craftsmanship, and top it with a contigous flat surface, eliminating the need for such materials. I plan to use Corian on top of my stand next time.

TankLoading.jpg
 
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