Unique Pump Recommendation Needed

Thanks hahnmeister. My system is a 180g, so it can take a little heat. And I keep the tank at 84 degrees, though the ambient temp in the room is from 68 to 78 degrees. The lights add a bit of heat too.

Either way though, my water heaters run pretty much year round. So I can take a little heat.

When I plug the Velocity T4 into the Head Loss Calculator, I get a GPH of 525, which is still acceptable. But that calculator can't account for my canister filter or CO2 diffuser. So actual GPH should be a bit lower than 525.

But your point is well made. I don't buy lights with fans. I hate to start buying pumps with them if I don't have to. Thanks. I'll keep that on the list!
 
I've been looking at the Sequence Tarpon, Wahoo, and Marlin. But I am a bit confused. These pump sell in the $275-300 range.

If you can put a ball valve on the outflow of these things, to throttle them back to your desired flow, why would anyone ever buy a Tarpon? You could just spring for 2o more bucks and get twice the pump, and trottle it back to the flow you need.

And if you ever needed a larger pump you'd be glad you spent the extra $20.

What am I missing here? I don't see why you would ever consider a Wahoo or Tarpon.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9738748#post9738748 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scolley
Cool! I DID NOT know that!

That puts the Eheim 1260 and 1262 back into consideration! That's great because I know they are quiet and energy efficient (not a top priority here). And reliable.

Question is, can they handle the load?.
Click to expand...

Not a chance.


If you've got anywhere near the 20' of head you think you do, submersibles are completely out of the question.

Blueline is where i'd go. Similar to Iwaki, but IME, quieter.
 
Energy efficiency. At 600 gph, the Tarpon uses about 175w and the Marlin almost 300w. The Marlin delivers that flow at much higher head, but you waste energy by not sizing your pump correctly and valving it back.
 
"If you can put a ball valve on the outflow of these things, to throttle them back to your desired flow, why would anyone ever buy a Tarpon? You could just spring for 2o more bucks and get twice the pump, and trottle it back to the flow you need."

Because a Marlin valved back to 1400 gph is still probably going to pull 2.3+ amps, as opposed to the Tarpon pulling 1.6. That 77w is $10 a month.
 
Thanks Kernel Panic! I knew I was missing something. It seemed dumb not to spring for an extra $20. Energy efficiency explains that well. Thanks.

Thanks RichConley! I'm not going to be putting this pump in a sump. It will not be submersed. But I take your point. And thanks for the Blueline recc. Quit IS VERY important.
 
Just so you have all the info:

The Sequence pumps are low rpm. This inpart makes them quieter than must other external pumps (Iwaki Gen-X, Blueline, etc.). I am not saying you can't make those pumps quiet tho. The trade off however for the sequence pumps is that in order to push that much water with low rpm the motors and volutes have to be large. The footprint of the Tarpon is like 18"x8". If space is a consideration, this is important.
 
I think your great information has given me a all the info I could possibly ask for! Thank you!

So unless I'm missing something, it goes a bit like this:

Ehiem - probably the most quiet, very efficient, cannot handle much pressure
Ocean Runner - similar to Eheim, but less expensive (possibly a little louder?)
Velocity/Poseidon - very, very quiet, contributes some heat, and while can handle much more pressure than Eheim, possibly not enough for my application
Sequence Reeflo - quiet, but large footprint and high cost, definately can handle my pressure requirements
Blueline - between Sequence Reeflo and Iwaki in noise level, can handle pressure
Iwaki - great pump, similar to both Blue Line and Pan World, can handle pressure

Now I've got to test the pressure, and then depending on the amount of pressure I've got:

1) Get Velocity/Poseidon (assuming a little heat is ok)
2) or if I need more power, I get a Sequence Reeflo (assuming I've got the space)
3) or get a Blueline if I find my space is tight (and just deal with the fact that it's not quite as quiet)

Cool! That's actionable.

Now I just have to figure out how much pressure I need. I'm not sure how to do that reliably. I've got the last of my plumbing coming in tomorrow, and an OceanRunner 3500 that I can test with. Anyone know how to gauge with confidence how much pressure I have to overcome?

Thanks in advance. You folks have been mighty helpful to someone that's not even in the reef club! :-)
 
I wouldnt worry about the Velocity pumps making enough pressure... the T1 and T4 are flow pumps that go to 18ft, but the T2 and T3 are pressure pumps that go to 25'.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9751800#post9751800 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scolley
I think your great information has given me a all the info I could possibly ask for! Thank you!

So unless I'm missing something, it goes a bit like this:

Ehiem - probably the most quiet, very efficient, cannot handle much pressure
Ocean Runner - similar to Eheim, but less expensive (possibly a little louder?)
Velocity/Poseidon - very, very quiet, contributes some heat, and while can handle much more pressure than Eheim, possibly not enough for my application
Sequence Reeflo - quiet, but large footprint and high cost, definately can handle my pressure requirements
Blueline - between Sequence Reeflo and Iwaki in noise level, can handle pressure
Iwaki - great pump, similar to both Blue Line and Pan World, can handle pressure

Now I've got to test the pressure, and then depending on the amount of pressure I've got:

1) Get Velocity/Poseidon (assuming a little heat is ok)
2) or if I need more power, I get a Sequence Reeflo (assuming I've got the space)
3) or get a Blueline if I find my space is tight (and just deal with the fact that it's not quite as quiet)

Cool! That's actionable.

Now I just have to figure out how much pressure I need. I'm not sure how to do that reliably. I've got the last of my plumbing coming in tomorrow, and an OceanRunner 3500 that I can test with. Anyone know how to gauge with confidence how much pressure I have to overcome?

Thanks in advance. You folks have been mighty helpful to someone that's not even in the reef club! :-)
Click to expand...

i have to vote...
i have a velocity t3, and t4, and i highly doubt any eheim is as quiet as either of these pumps.. and the pump is tiny in comparison to any other comparable pump. yes they do add heat, but not much.. i ran 2 on my 155, along with whatever else was needed to run it, and it took 3x300w heaters to keep my temp at 79. i ran my beckett skimmer(mrc mr2) with one, and had the other as the return, and loved it..
you have to touch these pumps to know if they are on.. you can cut everything off, and close the ball valve off to the return so the overflows stop, and still cant hear the pump, unless there is a peice of sand or a shell in the pump rattling.. if 1 does,nt give you enough flow, the run 2 t3's into a 2x 3/4 to 1" T and call it a day..
thats just my 2cents..
 
Thanks folks. This has been a real education. So apparently Velocity/Sequence are ok. I've learned a few things...

1) My objectives are bad and my plumbing plan needs modification.
2) Or I need to accept a somewhat lower flow rate
3) Velocity/Sequence pump (T2 & T3 - as state above) work fine in my application.
4) I have to get into really big pumps (like the largest Sequence) to be able to give me the flow I originally wanted.

Came to these conclusions playing with a downloaded spreadsheet version of the Head Loss Calculator. What a cool tool that spreadsheet is. I'll be forever it the debt of its authours - Sanjay Joshi, Nathan Paden, and Shane Graber. What a service they did when they wrote that! Anyway...

When I look at the additional watts required to pump this water through my plumbing - using that spreadsheet - it becomes really clear that my design is pushing the water too fast when I achieve flows at (or exceeding) 600 GPH. If I back off my requirement to say 350-450 GPH (which is arguably sufficient) I can use much, much more efficient pumps using much, much less energy. Getting up to 600+ GPH pushes my water velocity up to 6 (or even 7) feet per second. The spreadsheet clearly shows that efficiency plummets when you begin to exceed 4 feet per second. In fact the article that documents the spreadsheet, on www.advancedaquarist.com, clearly documents this phenomenon.

Now I could move from 3/4" to 1" PVC. But the Pentair parts are all 3/4", and the plumbing is as much as built. I've got more money in bulkheads (6!), strainers, unions, valves, and misc. 3/4" PVC then I'll spend on a pump. So I'm kinda saddled with 3/4" now.

Hindsight is golden.

If I just drop my expected flow requirements down to say 450 GPH, all kind of pumps appear to work. Even the Velocity/Sequence T2!


But I've still got one problem - I don't know (for sure) how to factor the pressure of my Ocean Clear filter and my CO2 diffuser.

So I've just been adding an additional 5 feet of static head pressure in the spreadsheet's inputs, in hope that that will cover it. When I do that, the Sequence/Velocity T3 seems to hit the sweet spot. And it still performs OK (but not great) if I assume a whopping 8 additional feet of static head pressure from the filter and diffuser. And if I assume a just 1 foot additional static pressure from these devices, then the velocity spikes, and it becomes clear that I would have been better off with a T2 instead.

So, until I can figure out how much pressure my filter and diffuser introduce, I can't know whether I need a T2 or a T3. Any ideas?
 
I'm not an expert of fluid dynamics but have you thought of using two smaller, quiet, efficient pumps inline instead of one. Put one at the start of the loop and put another one somewhere along inline. Pumps have both a suction head and preasure head and if calculated right can be much more efficient than a single pump. The single pump with a high head will have to deal with more cavitation, reflow and deflection at the impeller. Another big one to avoid is putting in 90° bends. If possible use 45° and 22.5°.
 
Thanks pitogo. That was actually my original plan. But your qualifier - "if calculated correctly" seems to be the big buggaboo here. Not sure how to do that. Not to mention that with two pumps, both required to function for the system to function, increased my single points of failure. So I think I'll stick with one pump. If I can size it correctly.

As for the 90 degree bends, I have been avoiding that where possible. But a bit of research will show, I think, that that might be an over rated concern. They sure don't make much of a difference in the head height calculator. Thanks though.
 
OR, you could think of electricity and resistors...

perhaps two smaller pumps isnt a bad idea... but running two lines in parallel. Perhaps one does the 5' of head, and the other does the cannisters and UVs and such.

Actually, I dont see where all of these huge head-loss calculations are coming from... with the exception of the cannister filter and the 5' of return, the UVs and Heater modules are free-flowing. You can run the heaters in parallel rather than series so that they have minimal restriction, the CO2 diffuser... that shouldnt be that much. 20' of back pressure?!?! Seems a little high to me. But really, I think I would consider doing a recirculating loop in the sump with the cannisters and such... a loop that recirculates back into the sump... then a seperate pump that pumps back to the tank... that 5' up. I think you could get away with alot less this way.
 
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I wanted to do 2 lines in parallel. I LOVE that idea, and the redundancy it provides. That was my original plan. But I have one major problem preventing that - I don't have enough space.

Biggest issue there is that I can't run anything through the pipes until it is filtered first - cannot let crap in the lines clog them up. And filters take a lot of space. I'm putting this ALL into 2/3 of the space in my stand. That's about 2'x4', with another 2'x2' space left over for electronics and CO2 canister.

But running the heaters in parallel is a good idea. I'll look into that.

As to 20' of back pressure - I'm using the Head Loss Calculator. So while I appreciate the estimate, I'm getting as close to fact as I can.

And I don't have a sump. EVERYTHING is in-line. But if I had one, the recirculating loop idea makes a world of sense. No room for a sump either BTW.
 
Wait, this is sumpless? This is just a closed loop, not from an overflow? Oh, well... then you can eliminate that 5' of return loss as well... there is no head loss due to height if you are pumping into the same water level you were taking from. The only head loss you might have is from piping (using one pipe-size larger, esp with elbows, will minimize this though). If you put the heaters in parallel rather than in a series (so that any restriction that one might generate is countered by having 3x the paths to travel), all you really have for restrction is the cannister filter, and maybe that CO2 diffuser... but those arent that bad.
 
Thanks hahnmeister. Yeah, it is ALL closed loop. The tank drains through 3 different 3/4" bulkheaded holes in the bottom - it promotes good circulation in without having to put equiptment in the tank or go to excessive flow rates. Lots of current is generally not ideal for plants. Algae loves it though. :-)

The 3 drains consolidate in a PVC manifold that will feed a 1" line into a pump. The pump then pumps in-line to the filter and the long list of other in-line stuff. At the end it branchs into 2 returns that go over the side of the tank, emptying into each side of the tank at the top.

So what does that mean for head height? Zero? The depth of the pump outlet to the top of the tank where it comes in? Or maybe just the distance from the bottom of the tank where it exits, to the top where it returns?

I'm all ears. Thanks.
 
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