Unusual bangaii pair ?

Well we are at risk of hijacking Davids thread now :D But I can explain the advantages of stripping the eggs.

There are two main advantages that I use as justification for stripping the eggs from the male before batch-
1. No recovery time for the male. He continues to eat and remain strong and healthy during the egg incubation.
2. If a male holds to term, he will consume some of the eggs during the incubation period for his own nourishment. This dramatically lowers the yield per nest.

It may also decrease the amount of time between clutches, if the male is available to take eggs...though I have not yet observed this.
 
Hijack away, this has become a great thread :D After ignoring bangaii's for several years thinking they are simply not profitable to breed, I am now very motivated and very much interested in everyone's experiences. The main idea is to maximize production, if the egg stripping does that then I'm all for it. If there is a downside unveiled at some point then I think the two male swap is another alternative.
 
In my hands, males are longer-lived than females and over time I tend to end up with a bunch of bachelors (eh, widowers) which can be swapped-off. Despite the rhetoric about over-worked husbands, the male seems to have a choice about whether it will carry eggs full term, but the female is destined to keep cranking them out. This may account for her shorter life span. The few egg masses I have examined (only two actually) had about 40 eggs. Once into the rhythm, the males will keep providing 30-50 offspring every 40-50 days. If indeed the males are eating some, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s not many and may be a justifiable reward for their efforts. My primary limitation is not space, but time.

-steve
 
Steve,

Ok, I am now green with envy. Have downloaded the article and will read on the flight home tomorrow.

40-50, I either have a very hungry male, or a very small male. But I never get anywhere near that number. I am lucky at 5-10%. But then again thay are in my main tank, so perhaps food does play an important part.

Will have to experiment some more.

Good luck and thanks for the article.

Steve
 
Steve & Stephen-
I think one point being missed is not the fact that you can strip the males and hes ready for another set of eggs w/in a few days (not weeks), but that females tend to become synchronous w/ males for producing eggs. In my experience the females lay eggs when males are available. Therefore by make more male mouths to hold more eggs available-one should get a higher egg output from the female. Since in my experience male mouths and time is the limiting factor. females produce eggs frequently. So assuming your statement to be true-your males are producing 30-50 offspring/40-50days, what if you could 2X-3X that by having the males available for the next set of eggs 1 week later??

I also understand the data is the data, but the cost associated factors and selling cost of the fish-IMHO is incorrect. Becuase of the demand for this fish- I believe you can ask for more and people are willing to pay it for a "healthy fish".
I will also agree w/ your statement- the males tend to live longer. IME the females almost never makde it past 3 yrs while the males routinely lived til 5. The metabolic demand of egg production does reduce their life span
 
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Uh-oh, didn't know about the short lifespan. I'd better get my 4 yr old mated up pronto. What a waste, he has been all alone for all these years :rolleyes:

I'm planning to ask one of my better lfs customers what he would be willing to pay for healthy captive bred bangers, I'm thinking it needs to be $10 to really make it worthwhile. WC typically wholesale for $4 in LA so that is gonna be a stretch.
 
Yeah, but the difference is the high mortality rate in WC. My brief stint in a fish store had me discovering bangaiis we really sucky to keep alive. Half to 3/4 died. The ones that lived past the first week did great, but that's a ****ty number to loose so we had to mark them up 4-5x to make up for the losses.
 
FishGrrl, if they are shipped and housed in community tanks at the LFS they will stress themselves to death. Wild-caught don't have a chance when handled this way. For captive bred, siblings can usually be kept together until they have nickel-size bodies. However, once you start splitting up a batch they will go territorial and you will shortly start loosing them from the stress factor unless they are housed separately. Personally, I think captive bred should be marketed when they have dime-size bodies. They are hardy and still enjoy each others company at that size. However, the wholesalers insist that is too small and say they need to be quarter-size bodies. Then they throw them all in the same tank and wonder why they are loosing so many.

The stress-induced death is still something of a mystery to me. All I know is that it is real and cannot be ignored.

Frank, believe me, I would like to get a lot more than $7 per fish. However, if I can't match the cost of wild fish, then I can't get rid of them fast enough. The marketing window is fairly short because I cannot afford to give them the space they demand once they become territorial. At $7 for nickel-size the wholesalers still complain that wild-caught are twice as large for the same price. The wholesalers are turning them over pretty quick so maybe they just don't care if the fish are destined to die due to the way they are being handled.

Hopefully, 2006 is going to be the year I get my marketing act together. We had a horrible flood this spring and I lost everything in growout and half of the broodstock so I won't be selling anything again until late summer. Maybe between now and then I can prospect for better markets.

SPK, the number of offspring tends to increase over time and then levels off at 30-50. I usually have 10-20 gallons per fish, but they are alone and get all the live food they want.

-steve
 
steve-
If everything goes as planned for next few yrs, the hobby shouldnt be able to get WC banggais- your demand will be there, and importantly more than $7/fish
 
If everything goes as planned for next few yrs, the hobby shouldnt be able to get WC banggais- your demand will be there, and importantly more than $7/fish

rats, busted... Frank has uncovered the real reason that David M has a renewed interest in breeding bangaii's...:smokin:
 
I'm planning to ask one of my better lfs customers what he would be willing to pay for healthy captive bred bangers

I just got back from the store, he will pay me $12.50 for penny sized bodies and try selling at $29.00 Based on how that goes we will adjust the size & price accordingly.
 
Steve,
First, congratulations for your work with Banggais and the manual.
I am pointing out a few inaccuracies (with the only aim of to strength your work, not to criticized it) so that most people interested in Banggais, and apogonids in general, would fully benefit from your work.

Taxonomy: currently there are two species of Pterapogon i.e.: P. kauderni (the Banggai) and P. mirifica, an endemic species from Western Australia.
Pterapogon kauderni was first described in 1933 (by Koumans), not 1920 (it was first collected in 1920, by Kaudern).

Ecology
Although it has been reported (as you correctly cited) that mating pairs in the wild move away several meters from the groups and defend territories, this is not quite the case.
First, that cited work has serious methodological flaws and some hard to believe observations. My own field observations (already 3 expeditions to the Banggais Islands) differ significantly. The formation of mating pairs in the wild occurs in both isolation from the groups, and within the overall group area (with the pair not much more separated from the groups than about 50cm). Overall, it depends on the density of individuals (Banggais) in a particular habitat. In addition, brooding males are very commonly found in the center of the groups, like seeking protection.

Reproduction:
The (chorionic) filaments that keep the egg-clutch together last almost until hatching time, but it does not necessarily help to keep the eggs in the mouth. Actually, it would probably be easier for the male to rotate the eggs inside its mouth, for cleaning and oxygenation purposes, if the eggs were loose (as it happens in other fishes, including Pterapogon mirifica).

The following can be considered just a technicality. I am not being picky here; I just would like to clarify some terminology so fish hobbyists may find this helpful when reading some technical literature. I think that the single most important contribution I did regarding the study of this species was the finding of its unique mode of reproduction, i.e., direct development, which entitles the elimination of the larval period. Therefore P. kauderni lacks larval period. The embryos hatch in a stage called eleutheroembryos (or free-embryos) and complete their development inside the male mouth. At the moment of release, they are already juveniles. So, at difference with most marine teleost, Pterapogon kauderni lacks a planktonic dispersal stage (larva), and therefore, it lacks the typical metamorphosis that any organism with larva needs to go through to become juveniles.

Regarding above discussion about stripping males: in my opinion it will make sense if you have considerable more females than males. Having the males brooding for just a week or so, it will liberate them and after some feeding, the same males could be used for at least one more spawn during the same month. However, some males may be reluctant to mate with some females, so if you retrieve the eggs from a male that mated with female A, the male not always will mate with female B ( which by the way, needs to be ready to mate, i.e., sexually mature). Females will not produce more spawns, just because they are joined with new males after spawning. Females kept under standard conditions will need an average of at least 25 days to mature a new batch of eggs.

best regards
Alejandro Vagelli
 
Alex-
thanks for your contribution. Glad you found this thread and your input is welcome here.
While you mention that some males will not mate w/ some females, I found the opposite sex not to be the case. IE, the females were much more promiscious than the males and when gravid pretty much choose whatever male I had available. I had 2 females and 6 males in my breeding station and found the sticking point was in fact the males holding eggs, not the females laying sufficent numbers of eggs. From my 97 article I believe it took approx 18-20 days for the females to make more eggs, but the males always took longer to gestate the eggs. So I had a backlog of eggs
frank
 
Hi Frank,
You are welcome.
Yes, that agrees with my own observations, and the overall reproductive strategy of this species (which I described in some detail in my 1999 paper). In a few words, in this case the females are very ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œeagerââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ to find a mate when they mature, otherwise it would be an enormous waste of energy (besides genes) to produce such a large volume of eggs full of yolk reach in lipids, proteins and respiratory pigments. On the other hand, the males face the dilemma of mating and passing their genes, but starving for a few weeks and to be in a more vulnerable situation, or not to mate a particular time and keep growing and safer.
Since they are able to breed many times during their life span, I guess they can be more picky with regards to the female / timing. However, my feeling is that this situation (males sometimes being reluctant to mate) is much more common under captive conditions (probably induced by different stress factors, including environmental and conspecific) than in the wild, where the individuals not only need to deal with intraspecific competence but they have to compete and avoid to be prayed upon by other species.
The amount of time that females need to produce a new batch of eggs depends on several factors, including temperature, feeding, stress etc. Yes, 18-20 days sometimes is what it takes, but it is not then most common and it is not a sustainable situation. It may happen once or twice at the most, but the same female would not reproduce every 18 days, says 5-8 times in a raw. Most likely is that will take 25-30 days a few times, and then she may skip a month or two, and so on (at least this has been my experience).

Alex
 
New fish

New fish

I have some new bangaii's to add to the mix :D A breeding pair and two seperate large adults. I placed the two together... nothing. They couldn't care less about each other. From past pairing efforts I believe two males would fight and if one was male it would show interest in the female, so my thinking is that they are both girls :rolleyes: That is fine because I have my large unpaired male from my previous breeding days. If I can pair him up with one of these I'll have 3 pair, two of them proven breeders. Plus I have the 4- 15 month olds and should hopefully get at least one pair out of them. That's as much space as I'm gonna dedicate to bangers, 4 tanks. Should be enough to take a go at it. Guess I need to order some tumblers :cool:
 
"Get another female and have two pairs...." is NOT so easy Where the heck am I going to find a mature healthy female bangaii ???

You are very welcome for the two "mature, healthy" female bangaiis. :D

And thank you for the very generous compensation -- I wasn't expecting nearly that much. Just wanted to help you out with the breeding effort (which is why I initially bought them).

Keep me updated!
Kristin
 
We seem to have a match, my boy & one of Kristin's girls :D She is the aggressor, he's a little shy. Probably a tad nervous after 2 years of celibacy :smokin:

Also I think the "unusual pair" male is holding, will know for sure in a while. It's been 23 days since the last transfer and he's vanished into the caulerpa forrest just like last time.
 
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