Use of Lasers in Controlling Pest Algae and Corals

[BuckeyeTodd]

By all means, safety is a huge concern. Every single page on here warns of the dangers. In no way should anyone take it lightly, but this is an answer for many reefers. To close off discussion on this topic would dissapoint me. Like many other things in this world, when used properly this is a safe device.

 

[TheFishMan65]

It would be nice if people only contributed ideas (or questions) about saftery. Instead we get a lot of people saying not to worry about safety or to just not to try lasers.

I for one appreciate someone listing all the precautions that can be thought of and trying to find a safer way to do this. I look forward to your updated CalmSeas.

 

[NatureNerd]

Sure, great point - I missed an obvious one. Without the cooling effect of the water, the laser would also be more effective.

Getting back on topic.

The idea of using the laser on rocks pulled from the tank, kind of defeats the whole purpose. If you can pull the rock out, a simple butane lighter will do the job quicker, more effectively, and safer.

 

[CalmSeasQuest]

CalmSeasQuest:

I do not get the impression that Sk8r was attributing the threat toward anything you have done. I think he feels (as I do) that the safety issues related to this discussion continue to be downplayed by those who seek to contribute their opinion, even after it has been made clear that the safety issues are the chief concern and their BOLD repitition are key to keeping this topic open.

Thanks BA, I do understand the concern. I just find it ironic that this thread would be under threat of closure when in fact, it's the single best proponent and reference source for the SAFE use of lasers in aquaria.

BTW, thank you for your work on the design of silent and safe overflows - I would never consider using any other type of overflow.

 

[CalmSeasQuest]

By all means, safety is a huge concern. Every single page on here warns of the dangers. In no way should anyone take it lightly, but this is an answer for many reefers. To close off discussion on this topic would dissapoint me. Like many other things in this world, when used properly this is a safe device.

Thanks very much - I couldn't agree more

It would be nice if people only contributed ideas (or questions) about safety. Instead we get a lot of people saying not to worry about safety or to just not to try lasers.

I for one appreciate someone listing all the precautions that can be thought of and trying to find a safer way to do this. I look forward to your updated CalmSeas.

Thank you! Hopefully those contributing can help us stay on topic.

It's really the "Wild West" when it comes to using lasers for our intended purposes. There are those so focused on the potential benefits, they fail to understand (or at least promote) the risks and important safety concerns.

From my perspective - safety glasses should NOT be considered an option. I have a background in aviation - I tend to use a "checklist" for many processes that pose a risk or in which the outcome is dependant on the process itself. The use of safety glasses should be part of everyone's "checklist" prior to firing the laser for not only the user, but any and all spectators. This is a challenge for 2 reasons,

1) The desire to "show off" or demonstrate the laser is significant. It's human nature to want to share with friends and fellow reefers this new-found way to "Zap" pests into oblivion.

2) The proper eye protection is expensive. At ~$50 for a pair of properly rated laser protection glasses, it becomes an expensive proposition to provide eye protection for those wishing to observe.

I'm hoping my inclusion of the burned retina photos and details is enough to prove that eye safety is the single most important part of laser use. At these power outputs, it takes but a fraction of a second to damage (potentially permanently) your eyesight or the vision of anyone within range of your laser (many hundreds of yards.)

Protecting our vision is as simple as wearing the proper safety glasses. Protecting the livestock is admittedly trickier. To accept the fact that the laser is dangerous to our vision, then fail to take steps to protect the very livestock we work so hard to maintain that are literally inches away from the laser makes no sense to me.

 

[CalmSeasQuest]

Getting back on topic.

The idea of using the laser on rocks pulled from the tank, kind of defeats the whole purpose. If you can pull the rock out, a simple butane lighter will do the job quicker, more effectively, and safer.

I agree that there are many other options if you can completely remove the rock containing the pests form the aquarium but... I believe the laser is far more effective than a cigarette lighter.

Over the years, I've read numerous stories of aquarists removing rocks and trying all sorts of methods (including using a propane torch) in an attempt to kill Aiptasia with poor results....it often came back.

A laser has the advantage of being able to focus incredible amounts of energy into a specific point. This is perfect for targeting Aiptasia that usually withdraw into deep crevices or pores in the rock that are often safe from other forms of attack (even a blow torch.)

 

[CalmSeasQuest]

The OD4 acrylic (the most expensive square foot of .140" thick plastic I've ever purchased) should arrive next week so I can start working on the endpoint shield. While I'm looking forward to testing the underwater host, I'm finding extremely easy to work through the glass.

Today I cleared a large patch of Xenia that had grown from the side glass (where I allow it and GSP to exist) onto adjacent rock work. It took a couple of sessions (due to the 60 second duty cycle of my laser) to eliminate it. I've found it sometimes takes a brief additional lasing in a few days should any survive. Even with that it's extremely effective taking less than 10 minutes in total.

The testing on Valonia was also effective. I found that a few seconds lasing the entire bubble resulted in 100% kill rates. The bubble fades and dissolves over the following few days.

Bryopsis - I only had a small amount on a frag plug to work with, but although it seems tougher, also withers and dies. It takes a bit more lasing time, but it seems to have been effective as after a couple of weeks it has yet to return.

Although much of the discussion has "focused" on eradicating Aiptasia - I'm finding it incredible to be able to easily control Xenia and GSP. As many that have introduced them into their tank have found, it's very easy for both to get out of control. Lasers provide a fast and effective way to manage both.

 

[JasonD]

Ok I will chime in. Ordered my 1400mW blue laser from survival laser I was really impressed with the quality of the instrument. He even wrote on it the actual tested power of the instrument in my case it read 1435mW. I also got a pair of goggles with it.

Next I got all my pets out of the room and set my digital timer for one minute since the laser has a one minute on one minute off duty cycle.

I practiced on a piece of Valonia to see what the effects are and practice my focusing of the beam. I didn't bother turning off the pumps in the tank too lazy. As soon as I shone the beam in the tank all the fish hid behind the rocks they are definately not attracted to the beam. Focusing on the Valonia I could hear a sizzling sound but nothing dramatic could be observed I did this for four cycles, the skin looks a little shriveled but it will be interesting to see how it develops in the future.

But the medium sized aptasia was different as soon as I hit it with the beam it started melting-I felt like Dorthy in the Wizard of Oz after she through water on the Icked Witch-the reaction was immediate and violent as the Aptasia withdrew into its hole. Did I kill it I don't know but I certainly did omething to it. If it comes back I have plenty more for it.

It takes some practice learning to hold the beam still and learning to focus it. But after using it one time I would say it is a powerful tool for the advanced aquarist who is willing to follow common sense safety practices. I did not notice any heating of the aquarium glass touching it right After I lased through it.

Also at least for the aptasia I don't think turning off the pumps is necessary when dealing with high power lasers > 1000 mW.

Be safe,have fun, and always wear eye protection.

 

[RobbyG]

This thread Interesting and informative and down right crazy!
I am glad I am not the OP as it's a sure bet that someone will eventually blind themselves or someone else while doing this and while it won't be anyone's fault but theirs I just would not want to be a link in the chain of events.

I think Randy stated it best on page one but here we are several pages later and by now a few dozen Lasers are probably operational. Sorry to be a downer but I have seen so many things like this go wrong, one that jumps to my mind was a friend giving someone else some "great" advice about unclogging a stubborn pipe by using Hydrochloric Acid, and yes the pipe blew back splashing the Acid on the guys face. Safety lectures etc only work for some people, many people either start out unsafe or become so accustomed to it working out that they eventually get Lax, doing stuff like not locking those room doors or forgetting to lock the Laser away while they go get a tool from their tool case.

 

[Wrench]

I have several pairs of sunglasses that I keep nearby for people to wear. They're polarized which should stop most of the bad stuff from getting through.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Here's a dumb question. And keep in mind although this is very interesting, I don't have nor am I planning on purchasing a laser, but as far as the eye protection, do they have to be specially made for that particular spectrum of laser or can any pair of polarized glasses work? I ask because I have a few pair of Oakley that have polarized lenses. will they protect from these lasers?

 

[Wrench]

NO! My post was made in jest. The safety goggles you wear must match the wavelength of the laser you're using.

 

[RobbyG]

NO! My post was made in jest. The safety goggles you wear must match the wavelength of the laser you're using.

Thanks for proving the point:hmm3:
Your joke which seemed obvious to you and me; might seem like serious info to others. That pretty much reflects the general lack of knowledge on this subject and just imagine how many of those people are busy burning stuff with their new toy.

 

[gp2]

I have to put my .02 in. DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!! I use lasers on a daily basis (on people in a medical setting) To say that they must be respected is one of the most ridiculous understatements I have ever heard.

Retinal destruction is immediate, permanent and complete. My safety glasses cost over $4oo each. The wavelengths they protect against are etched into their lenses. I have 7 different lasers with each one requiring a different set of eyeware protection. I seriously doubt a $50 set of glasses made in China with who knows what quality control will be sufficient. You will only know that answer if you are blinded.

Lasers are absorbed by different things. Some by water, some by tissue, etc... If a laser hits a reflective surface it will move around the room in unpredictable ways. That is unless it is absorbed by you or someone elses tissue... ALL reflective surfaces MUST be removed from the room where lasers are being used. Burnished type metals are ok, but any metal that is reflective needs to be removed. An aquarium surface? I have no idea but would seem very risky. If my office is inspected and a hand mirror is laying out in a room where a laser is the fine is about $10,000.

The risk/benefit analysis regarding this is bizarre. Your family gets home early and your kids walk in, Woops! A beam reflects out a window through your neighbors window, OOps sorry bout that.

As a disclaimer I only scanned the thread, but the demo at the reef club with the sunglasses is hilarious. God loves drunks and fools, and if he continues to do that someone will be blinded. sunglasses are not protective for lasers. I am by no means an expert on laser physics but I am responsible for peoples safety around them.

 

[bundybear1981]

This is an interesting topic, thou in Australia they have banned most lasers / laser pointers from peoples (overall) stupidity and lack of responsibility with things this dangerous. If you try to import them customs will confiscate them (we have a restriction on a maximum of 1mW unless you have an exemption licence)

Thou it will be intersting to see how this does (or doesnt) work as a long term method.

 

[CalmSeasQuest]

Thanks for posting GP2 - A few thoughts...

• I believe this thread, through the standards recommendations has addressed the concerns you raised.
  
  
• I think it's safe to say that the lasers used in a medical setting are significantly different and much higher power than the <1800mW lasers being used in aquaria.
  
  
• I think it's unfair to judge the quality of the eye protection being worn based soley on comparison to the cost of medical equipment. The Eagle Pair glasses I use (and recommend) are also etched with the designed spectrum and are OD4+ rated. I would wager the eye protection used in a medical setting to be little better as additional increases in OD result in less visible light making it harder to see whatever (whomever) you're working on.
  
  
• I think a 10X margin for an item to be used and insured in a medical setting is probably typical.

Most importantly, we agree that any public demonstration of a laser (especially those including reflective surfaces such as aquariums) that fail to take the recommended safety steps, including requiring appropriate eye protection for everyone within range of the laser is beyond absurd.

 

[jrpark22000]

I have ordered an additional set of safety glasses. OD7 rated for the appropriate wavelength I am using. With the large amount of reflection produced when shooting through glass I though it to be a worth wild investment.

I do have a concern that these will block too much light and make the laser dot hard to see. With my OD5 glasses my 1.4W dot still shows quite bright. I think I will still be able to see 1% of an OD5 dot. I'll post back results after I receive the glasses.

Safety glass ratings for reference

My second set of glasses finally arrived.

https://www.oemlasersystems.com/pro...tion/uv-visible/arg-uv-blu-ray-argon-blue-ktp

They are great. The laser endpoint is still bright. I can see the beam as it passes throug the glass. I can not see the beam pass through the water as I could with the eagle eye glasses, which came with the kit.

Overall the fit and finish is great and they provide better protection.

 

[gp2]

Thanks for posting GP2 - A few thoughts...

• I believe this thread, through the standards recommendations has addressed the concerns you raised.
  
  
• I think it's safe to say that the lasers used in a medical setting are significantly different and much higher power than the <1800mW lasers being used in aquaria.
  
  
• I think it's unfair to judge the quality of the eye protection being worn based soley on comparison to the cost of medical equipment. The Eagle Pair glasses I use (and recommend) are also etched with the designed spectrum and are OD4+ rated. I would wager the eye protection used in a medical setting to be little better as additional increases in OD result in less visible light making it harder to see whatever (whomever) you're working on.
  
  
• I think a 10X margin for an item to be used and insured in a medical setting is probably typical.

Most importantly, we agree that any public demonstration of a laser (especially those including reflective surfaces such as aquariums) that fail to take the recommended safety steps, including requiring appropriate eye protection for everyone within range of the laser is beyond absurd.

Tom for guys like you this is probably fine. Obsessive about the safety factors, and big into research. Also for the engineer types. My experience in working with many very dangerous technologies (laser is one of the safer things I do) is that very few people take the necessary safety precautions. Even when threatened with loss of job or significant fines the vast majority of people do not respect the dangers inherent with these activities. I work in the700-1700 nm range with a range of 3-25 J/cm2 depending on the application.

I stand by the fact that I would be very wary trusting the safety glasses. I would research the manufacturing firm extensively. Any lapse in quality control could be obviously devastating.

I also feel that any "family guy" probably has no business messing with this for aptasias etc... risk/benefit analysis is just not there. I would view this as a loaded gun laying around with a very small benefit. Aptaisers seem much safer with almost no risk. I would also caution anyone that is going to do this to shield all windows to prevent hitting someone outside.

I cannot tell you the number of times I have pulsed a laser inadvertently. I have nailed my hand on multiple occasions. Everyone I know that does this kind of work has done this also. It is really hard to prevent these sort of human errors. We all stick ourselves with bloody needles also, although this is fairly rare it happens to almost all of us. Given that, mistakes will happen to even the most cautious. Is it really worth it to kill some aptasias? I would be very careful with the mainstreaming of this in any way. The absurd demo is a wonderful example of the myriad unforeseen consequences that will occur. Working around flammable or volatile liquids or fumes would be a fun way to experience disability from this technology also. I have not perused my test kits/additives to see if any are flammable or alcohol based. Just another of the endless possibilities for mayhem.

 

[philosophile]

Anyone try lasing hair algae yet?

 

[IBASSFSH]

Very cool thread. Love the videos, and the fact you have stressed the importance of PPE while using the laser. Looks to be very effective.