Using ABS instead of PVC....Opinions?

[ReefSafari]

So I had a 40b setup for almost a year, with a HOB skimmer and filtration, I wanted to move more toward doing more SPS, I had Birdsnest, Millepora, Monticaps, ect., along with LPS and softies. I setup a new 40b that was drilled and has a 20L for a sump, I bought a new in sump protien skimmer, the sump has a refugium as well. I had been using plain instant ocean for salt and had great success with it and dosing calcium, ect...I also had been using tap water for the past year with no issues.

So for the new tank, I bought an RODI Filter, Vortec MP10, Mag 7 Return pump, and got everything running, bought some dry rock (Marco Rock) to add to the existing live rock that I was moving over to the new tank, set it all up and got it running. Another thing I did differently was setup the new tank with RODI and Reef Crystals, once the tank was up and running, I started moving all the corals over, and within a span of 2-5 days almost all of my sps had completely died, I mean pure white dead, dead. The LPS had massive loss of tissue and have not looked good since the transfer. Even some of the softies like Zoanthids have melted away as well.

The lighting is the same, I have since done partial water changes religiously but with regular Instant Ocean to elimated the Reef Crystals as being the problem. I have done water tests as well as had the local LFS recheck my initial tests, and everything seems perfectly fine.

PH-8.4
ALK-9
Salinity-1.025
Ammo-0 (at least not detectable)
Nitrite-0 (at least not detectable)
Nitrate-0 (at least not detectable)
Phosphate- 0 (at least not detectable)
Temp- 79.5F
Magnesium- 1350

The lighting has not changed, I have a 250w Sunpod, I did change the bulbs to Phoenix brand but this was after the corals had died. I have checked every possible thing and tried to elimate what could a problem, I went back to Instant Ocean salt, I am still using RODI (I doubt that could be the problem), Same light cycle, The ONLY thing I can think of since my water parameters seem ok is that there is some kind of chemical in the water that I don't know about, I have been using Carbon (in a bag in the sump) since the initial mass die off. At first I thought it was the Reef Crystals, and blamed the new bucket of salt for my issues, but I am now back to using Instant Ocean again. I am worried that the drain I have comming from the glass holes overflow going to the sump is actually black ABS instead of white PVC, I have tried finding info on any issues with using ABS, but havn't found anything that says absolutley DON"T use it. All I can find is that ABS is not potable, becuase it cannot withstand being pressurized like PVC can, and that its main use is in drains.

There are so many things that could be wrong with my setup, it could have been the new salt I setup the tank with, it could be the Dry Rock I put in the tank with the already established live rock, it could be the ABS plumbing, I am really bummed that I don't know what the issue is.

I took the plunge and invested alot of time and money into this new 40b specifically to do SPS, and its heart breaking to not be able to figure out what my issue is. I have thought about breaking the whole tank down and starting over again, ripping the plumbing off and starting over with PVC, but I really would hate to do that.

So my question is, is using ABS for the overflow to the sump a bad thing, could it be causing my problems? I can't for the life of me figure out why I am having so many coral problems.

Anyone have any opinions? Any further info I can provide let me know, I would love to get on the right track again, it kinda depresses me that I even set this new tank up, wish I would have kept the old 40b, everything was doing so well in the old tank.

Thanks in advance

 

[llewoh05]

ive used a little ABS here and there with no known troubles. i would doubt its the cause of your troubles.

 

[clsanchez77]

I have 3" ABS in my brackish display under the gravel to aquascape underground caves. Been setup since '06 with no issues. I did not use the ABS glue, I did not need water tight fittings so I skipped the glue.

I do not believe the ABS is your source of troubles.

So for the new tank, I bought an RODI Filter, Vortec MP10, Mag 7 Return pump, and got everything running, bought some dry rock (Marco Rock) to add to the existing live rock that I was moving over to the new tank, set it all up and got it running. Another thing I did differently was setup the new tank with RODI and Reef Crystals, once the tank was up and running, I started moving all the corals over, and within a span of 2-5 days almost all of my sps had completely died, I mean pure white dead, dead. The LPS had massive loss of tissue and have not looked good since the transfer. Even some of the softies like Zoanthids have melted away as well.

You had several changes here in a very short time frame, it would be difficult to pinpoint the problems. I know some people have had issues with Reef Crystals, but I am not aware of those issues causing death.

Did you flush the RO-DI filter before using it?

Did you double checks temps, salinity and pH before moving corals?

How did you acclimate them? Changes in temp, salinity, pH, or even from one saltwater mix to another could have caused the shock.

Maybe not all corals died, but one or two stressed and poisoned the tank.

You questioned the dry rock, that is also a possibility. Where did you get it? How did you clean it?

There is so many more questions, you, I or others could ask.

I am really sorry for your losses. I would clean the system out and start over. Maybe break things down into smaller steps so you can eliminate a lot of these unknowns.

But I am pretty confident that the ABS and even the Reef Crystals was not the problem.

 

[ReefSafari]

Did you flush the RO-DI filter before using it?

By Flushing you mean let the filter run for a few hours prior to the start of collecting the water, then yes, I let it run for almost 2 hours then I purchased a 40g rubbermaid trash and started filling it.

Did you double checks temps, salinity and pH before moving corals?

Yes, temp salinity and PH where exactly the same, the only difference was I was using RODI and Reef Crystals instead of Tap Water and Instant Ocean.

How did you acclimate them? Changes in temp, salinity, pH, or even from one saltwater mix to another could have caused the shock.

This is where I think I went Horribly wrong, They basically went from one tank to the new tank, I had no idea that it would shock them to death by doing so. I figured since there was quite a bit of the previous live rock and I used live sand from the previous established tank as well, I figured everything would be better in the new tank for the corals, figured between the better protien skimmer, better salt (Made for Reef Tanks) and using RODI instead of tap water, the corals would love it. But as I said, most of the SPS died within days of being in the new tank, and many of the LPS are still not doing very well.

Someone suggested that I should have drained the water from the previous tank and used that to help fill the new one, that way the corals would have not been so shocked by me moving them into the new tank. I had no idea they would die.

Maybe not all corals died, but one or two stressed and poisoned the tank.

I pretty much removed the dead corals once I considered them dead, they turned white and died pretty quickly, within a day or so, and I removed the dead skeletons right away. I also started doing partial water changes every 3-4 days, during the initial death, I also added Carbon to the sump.

You questioned the dry rock, that is also a possibility. Where did you get it? How did you clean it?

This is another area I think I went wrong with too, I got the rock from MarcoRocks, they say its "precured", but I basically washed the rock with RODI and added it to the tank when I was setting it up, then added the cured live rock from the previous tank to it, let it run for a week with everything seeming pretty stable, then I started adding the corals to the new tank. Since then, in my research, many people place the dry rock in tubs of saltwater with a heater and powerhead and let it sit for months before adding it to thier display tanks, this is what I wish I would have done.

What threw me is my wife has a tank as well, and we do lots of fragging and swapping of frags with each other, and so many corals have gone from my tank to her tank and vise versa, and never had a problem, she runs her tank a bit different than mine, so I figured this would be no different than what my wife and I do, moving corals from one tank to the other, but there where so many things I did different with the new tank, I didn't know what I might have done to cuase the death.

 

[ReefSafari]

One more thing, I do have serveral Birds Nests that seem to be doing ok, they have not died at least, here a couple of weeks ago, I thought maybe the worst was over, the tank seemed to continue to be testing out ok, nothing seemed to be dieing quickly anymore, so I thought I might pickup a frag to test out the water so to speak. Well I purchased a beautiful green polyp Acropora frag, aclimated it over about an hour, and added it to the tank, within a week it was the same way, snow white skeleton, dead, dead. So I removed that one as well.

This is what spured me to post this on here to see if anyone had any suggestions, its almost like the tank itself is a death trap, and I don't know why or what to do. Its almost like there is something in the water like a chemical or something, that is why I thought about the ABS, and that it might be leaching something, I have no idea.

I don't want to keep waiting and every once and while buy a frag to test it out and have the frag die, seems like such a waste, but so far I have not been able to pinpoint why things are not doing well, especially when all the paremters test out ok, the protien skimmer is doing a great job, and is rated for twice the size of my tank, the lighting is the same (shedule and fixture wise, other than the new bulbs, but I know thats not the problem) Macro algae is growing and doing well, the fish seem to be doing well, I have good flow, so I don't know what is going on.

Additional information, as far as fish, if people are wondering, I don't have any questionable coral nippers, Here is the bioload...

2 Firefish,
2 Percula Clowns
1 Royal Gramma
1 Bangai Cardinal
1 Yellow Watchman Goby

Its a 40g Breeder with a 20L sump, Reef Octopus NWB 110 Protien Skimmer, Mag 7 Return pump that goes to two returns, and a MP10 for added flow in the display.

I will post pics when I get to my home computer...with some before and after pics.

 

[jdyer88]

abs has a "foam" core with thin walls surrounding it on both sides...the foam is really more a plastic, styrene actually...i don't think it would cause a problem. Even abs glue would be probably be fine when it is completely dry, mostly because it is not really glue at all. It is a solvent weld. It is basically abs plastic (acrolonitryl butadene styrene)(sp?) mixed with a solvent, that dissapates when it contacts ait, leaving only abs plastic behind.

 

[ReefSafari]

Here is an example of one of my milli frags that was a beautiful green and yellow and within a matter of 24 hours it was like this...

The same thing happened to my monticaps, totally white and dead within days, my acropora same thing.

Here is a little colony of Candy Canes that I have grown from just a couple of heads, it was perfect and after I added it to the new tank..it seemed to be really ****ed off...

And what it looks like today, its in horrible shape, and I don't know what to do...My other Candy Canes are starting to receed as well...

Its weird in that birdsnests seems to be the only thing that is still alive, Some zoanthids are doing good but many have melted, the only other LPS is a Duncan, and it seems to be doing fine. The ricordia, mushrooms, those all seem to be doing fine, The fish, hermit crabs, snails, ect. seem to be doing fine.

I don't know if the tank (even with all the live rock from the previous tank) is going through a cycle, and basically can't support corals right now? Which is weird that the Birdsnests is doing fine and actually growing, I have several kinds too, Pink, Green, Bird of paradise, some other kind I don't know the name of, they all seem to be doing ok, and the water tests out ok, so I am at a total loss as to what could be happening in my tank that is causing many of the corals to not do well and or Die!

Its very discouraging to go through all the blood, sweat and tears to finally get a tank setup that you really are excited about and its setup how you where wanting, only to not be able to keep the very things you intended to keep....alive...I really don't want to have to tear this tank down and start over, but I guess I will if that is the only thing left to do. I just wish I could figure out what is causing everything not to do well...

FTS

 

[clsanchez77]

bought some dry rock (Marco Rock)

I got the rock from MarcoRocks, they say its "precured", but I basically washed the rock with RODI and added it to the tank when I was setting it up, then added the cured live rock from the previous tank to it, let it run for a week with everything seeming pretty stable, then I started adding the corals to the new tank. Since then, in my research, many people place the dry rock in tubs of saltwater with a heater and powerhead and let it sit for months before adding it to thier display tanks, this is what I wish I would have done.

Now I am confused. The rock was dry, or cured. If you cure the rock, and then dry it out, its no longer cured. Dry rock does not need to be cured as there is no life on it...its dry. If the rock is cured, then it was cycled in salt water and is loaded with microbial life and potentially micro-organisms.

If the rock was dry, then washing it in RODI would do no harm. If the rock was cured (live rock), then washing it in RODI could have killed off the rock.

If the rock was cured, then dried out, then everything was already dead and washing it in RODI would have little effect. The rock would need to be recured.

Albeit still not sorted through all your facts, I am biased to the rock as the cause.

 

[ReefSafari]

Now I am confused. The rock was dry, or cured. If you cure the rock, and then dry it out, its no longer cured. Dry rock does not need to be cured as there is no life on it...its dry. If the rock is cured, then it was cycled in salt water and is loaded with microbial life and potentially micro-organisms.

If the rock was dry, then washing it in RODI would do no harm. If the rock was cured (live rock), then washing it in RODI could have killed off the rock.

If the rock was cured, then dried out, then everything was already dead and washing it in RODI would have little effect. The rock would need to be recured.

Albeit still not sorted through all your facts, I am biased to the rock as the cause.

The rock was dry, I washed it with RODI water and put it in the tank with live rock and sand from the previous tank, the previous tank had well established live rock in it.

Thier website states this...

Shipped Pre Cycled to help speed the set up of your new tank

http://www.marcorocks.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=100

I kept a close eye on the water parameters and never really saw a spike in Ammonia or Nitrite, so I figured I had enough established live rock from the previous tank that everything was ok.

Now I should have been smarter and not rushed it and cured this rock in a tub or tank for weeks if not months prior to adding anything to it, but I have been keeping a close eye and testing the water and from virtually day one of the setup the parameters have been fine, I did have high magnesium in the begining, but I think that was from the Reef Crystals that I used to start the tank up with, but since then the Magnesium has dropped a bit but is within a good range I think (1350-1400)

I figured with the established live rock and sand from the previous tank, that adding some "dry" rock to the tank wouldn't hurt....I initially thought the rock was leaching something that might be causing the corals to not do well and die, but what would it be leaching? Phosphates? My phosphates are not really high though, my test kit doesn't read any, the LFS has a digitial tester and it wasn't super high with that either. If it was leaching something really bad, you would think that the birdsnests would die off as well, and maybe the fish and inverts would be dieing too....but they are all doing ok, with good polyp extension and growth too...so I don't know.

At first I thought it was the Reef Crystals as I had read there was some bad batches of salt, so I was concerned that the salt I had bought brand new from the LFS was a bad bucket, and that might be why the corals are dying. I stopped using Reef Crystals right away to eleminate that as a possibility, When after several water changes with Instant Ocean, the corals where still not doing well, I started to think it was the Rock I had in the tank, but then I thought it could be the ABS overflow plumbing, there where so many things that it could be...at least in my mind....I am at a loss...

 

[steelhead77]

Not sure what's going on with your tank, but one thing I can state with 100% certainty is that it is not ABS vs. PVC that is causing your woes. Most thermoplastic is inert - once it's below it's glass transition (TG) temperature (typically 70-90C) it will not change. You drop a chunk of ABS in the ocean, in 100 years it will still be there as good as new. Those new bio-pellets (bio-degradeable plastic) people are using are an exception. They are engineered to breakdown after a certain amount of time. But ABS, PVC, Styrene, Polycarbonate, Polypropylene, PET, HDPE, Acrylic, etc will not breakdown and cause problems. I would venture to guess that at least some of the paraphernalia we regularly put in our tanks (pumps, powerheads, etc) have some component made from ABS.

 

[ReefSafari]

Not sure what's going on with your tank, but one thing I can state with 100% certainty is that it is not ABS vs. PVC that is causing your woes. Most thermoplastic is inert - once it's below it's glass transition (TG) temperature (typically 70-90C) it will not change. You drop a chunk of ABS in the ocean, in 100 years it will still be there as good as new. Those new bio-pellets (bio-degradeable plastic) people are using are an exception. They are engineered to breakdown after a certain amount of time. But ABS, PVC, Styrene, Polycarbonate, Polypropylene, PET, HDPE, Acrylic, etc will not breakdown and cause problems. I would venture to guess that at least some of the paraphernalia we regularly put in our tanks (pumps, powerheads, etc) have some component made from ABS.

Thanks for the reply, that makes me feel better, and one more thing I can eliminate as being the problem.

I am going to do a large water change, and hope for the best, if the corals do not come around in the next month, or at least show signs of at least not getting worse I will leave things be, and hope that it was just "new tank syndrome". But if I continue to have corals die, I will just tear the tank down and start over.

 

[clsanchez77]

I would also do large water changes. I would also run carbon, a lot of it.

How are you checking your salinity. Make sure what ever you are using is calibrated. I would also keep running your tests.

On the Mag 7, are you running it submerged? If so, make sure the case is not cracked. I have never had a bad experience with these pumps. Im just throwing out some other ideas.

If this continues, before you break down, go get some cheap tanks and start isolating your corals and see if you can restore them out of the tank.

Do you have other inverts in the tank, ie shrimp, crabs, snails?

How are your fish behaving? Eating fine? Swimming fine?

Just trying to verify that this is limited to just your corals.

Chris

 

[ReefSafari]

I would also do large water changes. I would also run carbon, a lot of it.

I have carbon in a media bag, I will be getting a couple of reactors here soon to run the carbon in a reactor, I have been doing 5 gallon water changes, but this weekend I think I am going to do a 50% water change and see if that helps.

How are you checking your salinity. Make sure what ever you are using is calibrated. I would also keep running your tests.

My salinity has been in between 1.025-1.026 the whole time, and I have verified it with the local LFS. Salinity is something I check several times a week, I do all the other tests weekly.

On the Mag 7, are you running it submerged? If so, make sure the case is not cracked. I have never had a bad experience with these pumps. Im just throwing out some other ideas.

Yes the Mag 7 is submerged in the sump, I bought it brand new, and inspected it prior to setting it up, I have not checked it since the tank was setup though, that will be something I will have to check.

If this continues, before you break down, go get some cheap tanks and start isolating your corals and see if you can restore them out of the tank.

I really hate to break the tank down, but if I end up going that route, I will try and do that.

Do you have other inverts in the tank, ie shrimp, crabs, snails?

No shrimp, I hate those darn things...lol, but I do have hermit crabs, and several types of snails, one Nassarius Snail I have had for almost a year, and they all seem to be doing fine.

How are your fish behaving? Eating fine? Swimming fine?

The fish are doing awesome, very healthy, and they all swim and feed great, I feed Mysis about every other day. The Royal gramma I have had for almost a year as well, and its doing great, the others are fairly new...3-6 months in my care, and they all act totally normal and healthy.

Just trying to verify that this is limited to just your corals.

Chris

It seems to only have effected some of the corals, maybe the more sensitive ones??

 

[chilwil84]

abs is not safe for potable water (ie drinking water) but i dont think it would cause an instant problem more likely a slow buildup of some chemical it slowly releases.

 

[Ronic]

I have a dumb question about something that I read.

By Flushing you mean let the filter run for a few hours prior to the start of collecting the water, then yes, I let it run for almost 2 hours then I purchased a 40g rubbermaid trash and started filling it.

Did you clean the can? Could some nasties come from it? Sorry for your loss, and that's the only thing that caught my eye.

 

[Rybren]

+1 on the garbage can. That was my first thought as well.

I'm not so sure that a 50% WC is a great idea. That could easily induce more stress. Why not break it up into a couple of smaller ones - if you even need it. If ammonia is 0, and everything else is within the acceptable range, why bother at this point? Some stability might help in this situation.

If you can get your hands on some Poly-Filter by Bio-Marine, I'd use it. That stuff is great at removing nasties.

Many, if not most bulkheads are made from ABS. My entire in-tank coast to coast overflow is made from ABS pipe and elbows and I have not experienced any issues. I rather doubt that the ABS is to blame - unless it was dirty or contaminated with something.

 

[steelhead77]

abs is not safe for potable water (ie drinking water) but i dont think it would cause an instant problem more likely a slow buildup of some chemical it slowly releases.

Sorry, you're wrong. If you've ever molded either ABS or PVC, you'd know that PVC is much more toxic yet people use it everyday for potable water along with ABS, PE and many other plastics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_pipework

 

[chilwil84]

Sorry, you're wrong. If you've ever molded either ABS or PVC, you'd know that PVC is much more toxic yet people use it everyday for potable water along with ABS, PE and many other plastics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_pipework

look at a length of abs it says not for use with potable water. i wouldnt rely on wiki for everything or anything for that matter.

the link talks about pressure pipe which is not the cellular core pipe sold at the home improvement stores.

 

[steelhead77]

OK. Plastic is plastic. Once it is molded it is inert. I was a plastic injection moldmaker for 27 years, now I am a plastic materials engineer. In fact, chances are every time you print something, you are using a part I had some hand in creating.

The only thing that may be an issue is if there is any type of mold release or anti fungal compound used. This is the ONLY difference between food grade and non-food grade. Food grade requires stricter molding parameters, nothing else. Most gate valves, unions and ball valves are made from ABS. But hey - if your worried about it, don't use it. Fortunately, there are alternatives.

 

[chilwil84]

along with additives that make it soft or more pliable hence the cancer risks for letting a water bottle get extremely hot in your car. so not all plastics are inert once hardened