Velvet/ich...treat?

[Reef1ruler]

Hello, I have a 120g fowler tank with a cleanup crew and some corals i fragged from my reef so keep that in mind when suggesting treatment methods. Now about 3 weeks ago I woke up to my relatively new powder blue tang covered in pretty large spots, they are bigger then ich spots and he was not scratching or anything so I figured it was velvet. He looked so bad that I figured putting him in my extra 10g treatment tank would be useless and just kill him, and since he was still eating like a champ i was not gonna risk his life. So for 3 weeks I have been doing water changes and feeding him varied food soaked in garlic. Now the other 2 fosh(blue tang, clownfish) are still spotless, but the powder blue has been getting a little better then a little worst(back and forth) but he was always active and eating like a champ. But today he looks about the same as yesterday except his tail has blood on it and there's no aggression in the tank so it was not the other fish that caused it. Now I was thinking giving him a freshwater dip and putting him in the 10g with copper since he hasent been getting better in the last 3 weeks. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[lespaul339]

Since your whole DT is infected, it's not going to do any good to isolate and treat the one fish showing symptoms. All fish need to be quarantined and treated if you are worried about having ich or velvet in your display. Otherwise as soon as you release him back into the DT after being treated he will be infected again.

 

[Reef1ruler]

Alright, should i freshwater dip the powder blue first and then treat with copper

 

[ThRoewer]

If the spots are too large to be ich it is for sure not velvet either as velvet spots are so small that you can hardly see individual spots and only see them at higher densities as a gold to rust colored velvety dusting of the fish (hence the common name "velvet").

If the spots are stationary (same dots stay in place for over a week) and grow into cauliflower like "tumors" it is likely Lymphocystis. See here for details: Lymphocystis Disease in Fish

 

[ThRoewer]

Alright, should i freshwater dip the powder blue first and then treat with copper

If it is Lymphocystis copper will make it worse.
Lymphocystis is a virus and like a cold will go away by itself in about 3 to 6 weeks. It seems that different strains of the virus infect different genus (or species) of fish so the risk of infecting other fish of different species may be low.

Good water quality and healthy nutrition are strongly recommended to keep fish healthy.

 

[Reef1ruler]

If the spots are too large to be ich it is for sure not velvet either as velvet spots are so small that you can hardly see individual spots and only see them at higher densities as a gold to rust colored velvety dusting of the fish (hence the common name "velvet").

If the spots are stationary (same dots stay in place for over a week) and grow into cauliflower like "tumors" it is likely Lymphocystis. See here for details: Lymphocystis Disease in Fish

It looks like this(not my fish but disease looks exactly the same) and could lymphocystis cause bleeding in the fins

 

[Reef1ruler]

Here is my actual fish, my phone camera doesent do its justice of how severe it looks

 

[ThRoewer]

This is Lymphocystis - a rather bad case (or the fish has ich as well):

This looks more like Ich to me:

If the spots come and go it is likely ich. The fact that it is on a powder blue makes it almost certain (they are ich magnets).

I would advise against using copper as it is an immunosuppressant and therefore could open the door to other diseases (like Lymphocystis).

There are 3 treatments I would consider: Tank Transfers (TTM), Chloroquine Phosphate (CP), and hyposalinity.

TTM is the best prophylactic treatment against ich (and nothing else), but less suited when you have to treat a lot of fish or are not sure what infection you fish actually have.

CP is the preferred treatment if you are not entirely sure what your fish have as it treats ich, velvet, uronema and likely also brook and trichodina.
The downside of CP is that some fish won't tolerate it. So it can't be used with seahorses, pipefish and their relatives. Also several wrasses seem not to survive it.
CP can be used in a FOWLR tank (I would advise against this) or in a QT/HT. If the fish are treated in a sterilized Hospital tank, they should be clean within two weeks. After that you can transfer them to a clean holding tank for further observation and the remainder of the DT fallow period.

Hyposalinity is handled well by all fish but may be tricky. There is also a remaining risk that you may have a low salinity ich strain which can't be treated with hyposalinity.

 

[Reef1ruler]

In person it's a lot worst and there are a lot bigger spots on his fins, but since he has had it for so long and it been basically the same makes me believe it's not ich or velvet, generally if it was och or velvet he would have died already with no treatment and would be scratching or something

 

[ThRoewer]

Ich spots can appear larger if the fish slimes a lot. The real tell is when some spots disappear after 3 - 7 days and new ones come up in a different place.
Ich can go on for weeks before it becomes deadly.
Also, not all fish need to to show symptoms.

 

[Reef1ruler]

what is your take on the bloody fins? I will put him in the hospital tank tonight and will treat with copper, i am not a fan of the TT method. I believe the stress of moving that much will kill even a healthy fish

 

[ThRoewer]

Copper is likely the worst you could do. It causes more stress to the fish than TTM and also lowers the fish's immune responses. The latter often leads to Lymphocystis and may also promote secondary bacterial infections of the ich lesions.

I would rather go with CP as it has a broader range of parasites it treats, so even if your diagnosis is off the treatment may still work. CP has also anti-inflammatory properties which helps with secondary infections.

Bloody fins can have a wide range of causes. A bacterial infection would be my first guess. Another cause could be a uronema marinum infection (can be treated with CP but not with copper).
Lymphocystis would only cause a bloody look around the white growths.

 

[Reef1ruler]

Honestly i don't know where i would even get CP, I would probably have to order it online

 

[ThRoewer]

Amazon: New Life Spectrum Ick-Shield Powder