Velvet outbreak if 240g heavily stocked reef

[finrod2]

I have a 240g reef 36" x 60". 80g sump, 100g fuge. I have about 30 fish tangs, angels, wrasses, clowns. I've had a few fish with ich, especially my Achilles which I've had for almost 2 years. It comes and goes but never severe and the fish are all eating.

I picked up two masked swallowtail angels off divers den and a week later they had a very fine salty coating on their body. I didn't see one of the angels or my emporator last night so I will have to do some hunting as soon as the lights come on today. So I need some advise. I want to eliminate the parasites once and for all. Here is my plan, please make suggestions where necessary since this is the first time I've faced this sort of issue.

1. Establish a hospital/holding tank, probably around a 90g
2. Remove all fish to tank, tear display tank apart if needed to get all the fish
3. Treat the fish in hospital tank - What medication do I use if I think I have both ich and velvet? Could tank transfer work on so many fish?
4. Let main display go fallow for 8-10 weeks.

What equipment do my fellow reefers suggest to maintain the hospital tank?
I have extra heaters, and a hang on filter. I was thinking about getting another skimmer that I can use on the hospital tank (not until after treatment, correct).
Thanks for your help in advance.

 

[snorvich]

CP works on both ich and velvet and is the preferred treatment for velvet. If you have both ich and velvet, the fallow period should be 12 weeks. I suggest establishing a quarantine protocol that starts with tank transfer and has at least three weeks of observation after tank transfer. All sources of fish or anything wet must be quarantined. Any fish coming from a source with non-therapeutic dosing of copper can mask parasites; they will normally exhibit symptoms within 3 weeks.

 

[HumbleFish]

+1 to what Steve said. If you think you are dealing with both ich & velvet, then CP or copper are your only two options at this time.

In a nutshell, this is the equipment you will be needing: Aquarium, heater(s)/thermometer, powerhead(s) pointed towards the surface of the water and probably a large HOB powerfilter for circulation & gas exchange.

I'd also suggest:

• Building an "egg crate" top, to prevent fish from jumping
• PVC elbows used as “caves” in which the fish hide
• Seachem Ammonia Alert badge to keep tabs on ammonia

Ammonia is going to be your biggest problem with all those fish, so I would always have freshly mixed SW on hand for water changes. Ammonia reducers ARE NOT an option when using copper (and probably not a good idea with CP either). If you go the CP route, remember that it's light sensitive so don't run a light or even put the QT too close to a window. Treatment for both CP & copper lasts 30 days.

If you think you are dealing with velvet then you need to move with a sense of urgency before fish start dying.

 

[finrod2]

I must be an idiot. What medication is CP?

 

[HumbleFish]

Chloroquine Phosphate (see links below):

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2397496

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2136214

To get the "right stuff", you need a prescription that can be filled at a pharmacy (no easy task).

 

[snorvich]

If you have a relationship with a vet, they can write a scrip for it. However, that is not a given.

 

[Hexacorallia]

bio-security 1 on 1. ALWAYS buy quarantined fish, or do it yourself. I've used cupramine for the past 8 years in commercial applications with very good success (12% loss after 72 hours, average 54 hour bag times). Another thing that helps great is feeding the proper diet, along with vitamins administered orally. stress, insufficient diet and poor water quality are the number one cause of outbreaks. Cupramine with melafix, primafix in conjunction.


&&& if you use copper, keep it at therapeutic levels constantly and test daily when first starting. Also copper absorbs into almost anything and especially LR. so use bare bottom tanks with PVC as stated above for real estate . P. skimming isn't recommended for use with most meds, because it will pull it right back out.

 

[GroktheCube]

Chloroquine can be added without titrating the dose up, which is an advantage when dealing with a fast killer like velvet, but it can be tricky to get the "right" stuff. I purchased some from a reputable chemical supplier, but if given the choice I'd prefer prescription.

There are downsides to CP. Some say it kills wrasses, but that doesn't seem to be universally true. It is also light sensitive, so lighting the QT is not an option.

Copper works for both ich and velvet, but needs to be titrated up slowly.

 

[snorvich]

Chloroquine can be added without titrating the dose up, which is an advantage when dealing with a fast killer like velvet, but it can be tricky to get the "right" stuff. I purchased some from a reputable chemical supplier, but if given the choice I'd prefer prescription.

There are downsides to CP. Some say it kills wrasses, but that doesn't seem to be universally true. It is also light sensitive, so lighting the QT is not an option.

Copper works for both ich and velvet, but needs to be titrated up slowly.

Exactly. Copper levels must be constantly monitored to keep the dose at a therapeutic level. Acquiring CP is not easy.

 

[Hexacorallia]

Its very tough when your QT tank isn't cycled or even set-up when you have fish to quarantine. before setting up your display tank, your quarantine tank should be ready. Or just buy already quarantined live stock. I have seen more tank wipe outs from people buying sick fish then ANY other issue. Advice coming from a former saltwater fish importer/diver, former seahorse hatchery operator, professional saltwater aquarium service owner.

 

[finrod2]

Certainly lesson learned on quarantine. My emperor is still alive and eating. How quickly does velvet act? days? a week? 2 weeks? My issue might be only crypto.

 

[tassod]

Even if you get the perscription, getting it filled is not easy either. Mine was submitted 2 days ago and i am still waiting as i've been told this is not something they keep in stock.

 

[Hexacorallia]

^^^^ correct!!! Chloroquine ....talk with your local vet and show pictures to verify you have an issue and he or she might prescribe with an intent to use the meds solely for that purpose (may be a expensive visit, visit fee plus meds). Me being right down the road from the Florida state university aquaculture lab, they have everything I need! being light sensitive, NO U.V. direct sunlight or artificial illumination....

 

[snorvich]

Or just buy already quarantined live stock.

There is no current vendor that reliably quarantines livestock.

 

[HumbleFish]

Certainly lesson learned on quarantine. My emperor is still alive and eating. How quickly does velvet act? days? a week? 2 weeks? My issue might be only crypto.

If it's crypto, you probably have more time than if you are dealing with velvet. I say "probably" because it's impossible to know how badly your tank and each fish are infested. Also, fish with thin mucous coats (ex. tangs) and/or compromised immune systems may not last as long as healthy fish with thick coats.

Velvet, on the other hand, can kill every fish within 3-7 days.

 

[Hexacorallia]

There is no current vendor that reliably quarantines livestock.

That is such a bummer. I offer quarantined livestock to all my customers. its just the right thing to do, to help keep the customers money in their tanks. unfortunately I do not ship. so no PM's LOL

I hope you get the problem solved asap and don't lose any fish. valuable lesson learned i no. Now your just that much better off next go around

 

[Spar]

That is such a bummer. I offer quarantined livestock to all my customers. its just the right thing to do, to help keep the customers money in their tanks. unfortunately I do not ship. so no PM's LOL

I hope you get the problem solved asap and don't lose any fish. valuable lesson learned i no. Now your just that much better off next go around

what method of QT do you do for the fish? exceptional service that you do this. even though I re-QT supposedly already QT'ed fish anyway, I would buy from a vendor who has their own procedures for premium price any day.

problem comes down to my motto with QT'ing: The only person you can trust to QT properly is yourself.

 

[finrod2]

Up till now I haven't quarantined any fish, which while not uncommon is not the right thing to do. I have a dilemma in that I will need to treat a lot of fish. I thought about getting picking up two medium sized tanks (55-70g). One for medication the other as a "holding" tank after they are treated. Once I remove off the fish from the tank I wait 10-12 weeks to let main reef go fallow with just LR and coral. Thoughts?

 

[GroktheCube]

That is such a bummer. I offer quarantined livestock to all my customers. its just the right thing to do, to help keep the customers money in their tanks. unfortunately I do not ship. so no PM's LOL

I hope you get the problem solved asap and don't lose any fish. valuable lesson learned i no. Now your just that much better off next go around

If I were to start an LFS, a real QT setup with prophylactic treatment for ich, velvet, flukes, and internal parasites would be at the very top of my to-do list. Copper for everything not copper-sensitive, CP for everything that is, and prazi + medicated food after that. I know it hasn't been seen yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium could develop resistance to CP, so I'd prefer to avoid over-using it in such a setting. Hopefully I'd be able to offer some sort of warranty as a result. I'm sure the initial cost would be substantial, but I imagine it could pay off in the long run, and possibly draw more customers.

 

[GroktheCube]

Its very tough when your QT tank isn't cycled or even set-up when you have fish to quarantine. before setting up your display tank, your quarantine tank should be ready. Or just buy already quarantined live stock. I have seen more tank wipe outs from people buying sick fish then ANY other issue. Advice coming from a former saltwater fish importer/diver, former seahorse hatchery operator, professional saltwater aquarium service owner.

If you're going to medicate anyway, taking something from the main tank to jump-start the bio filter is an option, and Biopronto actually works reasonably well IME. I was able to cycle a freshly sterilized HOB in a freshly sterilized tank in a week without adding anything else, other than a good few ounces of krill.