vinegar/vodka?

[penfold2]

My understanding is the carbon dosing will effectively deplete the Nitrate and leave the phosphate levels relatively unchanged because of Redfield's ratio (C:N = 106:16:1).

Aren't we importing a lot less P than N as well, though? As long as the export ratio matches the import ratio, it doesn't matter how skewed the N ratio is. I don't know what a typical import ratio is, but a skewed N export ratio does not automatically mean that P is accumulating in the system.

 

[NeilFox]

Aren't we importing a lot less P than N as well, though? As long as the export ratio matches the import ratio, it doesn't matter how skewed the N ratio is. I don't know what a typical import ratio is, but a skewed N export ratio does not automatically mean that P is accumulating in the system.

That is a very interesting subject that you brought up. I don't think it matters though and I will tell you why. Once you have started inporting a carbon source like vodka. The bacteria that consume it are using nitrate as a food source. Therefore the carbon source will bee consumed prior to the phosphate, this is more difficult to metabolize. Not impossible though. We are howevere; getting into some heavy chemistry. Better to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

 

[hypnoj]

I agree with the above posts. You're more then likely going to get a greater amount of red slime if you dose carbon (unless your nitrates are really high to begin with). GFO will remove PO4 regardless of how much nitrate is in your tank. For those who dose a carbon source and have 0 nitrates, but are positive for more PO4 then they would like, then in theory increasing only the nitrate levels in your tank will bring down your PO4 without the use of GFO.

 

[NeilFox]

I agree with the above posts. You're more then likely going to get a greater amount of red slime if you dose carbon (unless your nitrates are really high to begin with). GFO will remove PO4 regardless of how much nitrate is in your tank. For those who dose a carbon source and have 0 nitrates, but are positive for more PO4 then they would like, then in theory increasing only the nitrate levels in your tank will bring down your PO4 without the use of GFO.

I think that is correct. I have had a few beerss though so ia am happppyty with it.!!!!!!

 

[penfold2]

That is a very interesting subject that you brought up. I don't think it matters though and I will tell you why. Once you have started inporting a carbon source like vodka. The bacteria that consume it are using nitrate as a food source. Therefore the carbon source will bee consumed prior to the phosphate, this is more difficult to metabolize. Not impossible though. We are howevere; getting into some heavy chemistry. Better to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

I think everyone would benefit from this discussion as long as the OP is ok with us following this slight tangent.

I had assumed that bacteria require both N and P for various metabolic processes, and would preferentially absorb both of them in a specific ratio. An unequal ratio for sure, but it seems unlikely to me that they would completely ignore available P in favor of N. How do we explain the zeovit system which relies entirely on bacteria (no GFO, refugiums, etc) to reduce P?

 

[Allmost]

VSV

Vodka Sugar Vinegar.

 

[Allmost]

I think everyone would benefit from this discussion as long as the OP is ok with us following this slight tangent.

I had assumed that bacteria require both N and P for various metabolic processes, and would preferentially absorb both of them in a specific ratio. An unequal ratio for sure, but it seems unlikely to me that they would completely ignore available P in favor of N. How do we explain the zeovit system which relies entirely on bacteria (no GFO, refugiums, etc) to reduce P?

partially true.

if there is alot of C available, the bacteria can substitute it for P.

in Zeovit, we reduce carbon dosing as po4 lowers, to find the balance, higher doses of carbon [zeostart3] would actually show increase in po4 !

 

[jerpa]

I don't know that we can be certain it is a biological process and not some other mechanism from ingredients in the carbon sources, bacteria sources, and the zeoliths(?).

How do we explain the zeovit system which relies entirely on bacteria (no GFO, refugiums, etc) to reduce P?

 

[Allmost]

I don't know that we can be certain it is a biological process and not some other mechanism from ingrediants in the carbon sources, bacteria sources, and the zeoliths(?).

about po4 reduction ?

for sure zeoliths play a game, but to what extend ? dunno.

 

[jerpa]

I meant to quote a prior post. Sorry for the confusion. I edited above.

 

[penfold2]

partially true.

if there is alot of C available, the bacteria can substitute it for P.

in Zeovit, we reduce carbon dosing as po4 lowers, to find the balance, higher doses of carbon [zeostart3] would actually show increase in po4 !

Interesting. I've never used zeovit, so this is good to know.

I don't know that we can be certain it is a biological process and not some other mechanism from ingrediants in the carbon sources, bacteria sources, and the zeoliths(?).

Zeolites absorb cations, and phosphate is an anion, so I wouldn't think there would be any significant phosphate binding there. I would also think that the carbon and bacteria sources in zeo operate much like the vodka/vinegar and natural bacteria used by many. But with the actual zeo ingredients being undisclosed we can't really know for sure. Based on what most people assume is in the zeo system, I don't see anything that would be analogous to GFO.

 

[Allmost]

zeoliths are aluminum based.
could the particles that come off it work same as aluminum oxide ... which is essentially what po4 removers are ?

I am not too sure, but you do see a good drop in po4 when new zeoliths are added. and the effects lower over time.

 

[reefer91]

If zeoliths are aluminum based (Al 3+), they could bind anions...

 

[penfold2]

If zeoliths are aluminum based (Al 3+), they could bind anions...

Just because a substance contains a positively charged element does not mean it will attract anions. The other elements in the substance, and the arrangement of those elements will determine the net charge.

I'm no chemist, but from what I've read, zeolites do not adsorb anions.

 

[Allmost]

I think most Zeoliths and clay material are something like Al2SiO5

 

[reefer91]

Just because a substance contains a positively charged element does not mean it will attract anions. The other elements in the substance, and the arrangement of those elements will determine the net charge.

I'm no chemist, but from what I've read, zeolites do not adsorb anions.

I've taken many, many chemistry courses from gen, orgo, and biochem and a few more. It's been a few years, but this type of scenario usually indicates that Al is attached to something (read:Si and O). I should have clarified that they do not directly bind anions. In fact, it might have to do with P bound to something else as well, not even directly from the water column. Possibly the ones bound to Ca.

This isn't some one step chemical reaction, but the multi-step problem is just a creative collection of some basic techniques combined.

 

[Big E]

in Zeovit, we reduce carbon dosing as po4 lowers, to find the balance, higher doses of carbon [zeostart3] would actually show increase in po4 !

I had this same occurance dosing vinegar.......the PO4 kept rising. Once I was able to find a balance the amount of dosing was much lower. I never had to dose a nitrate source just adjusted my dosing down.

The key is creating a balance for each tank............no two will be the same.

I'm also a firm believer in that if you're going to carbon dose you can't use other forms of
Po4 export. Your success will not be the same & much more difficult to control.

I would say to use GFO for a week or so only to get in the ballpark range if you have high levels..........after that take it offline and let the bacteria handle things.

On the red slime...........it's a bacteria and will use vinegar too & it's very good at sequestering nitrogen. If you are getting red or green cyano reduce dosing and baste the rocks daily for a week or so.