Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

[Remmers]

Tom

I would like to pick your brain if I could?

When starting a dosing regiment to keep dino and hair algae in check and provide a carbon source Do you suggest starting with Vinegar, Vodka or Both at the same time?

I have a friend who thinks Im crzy for wanting to go this route as he swears by Bio pellets but I think this is a more natural approach and for that reason I want to dose One of these or both

I have a fuge I just set up so there is just a little cheato in there and I am running GFO and Activated carbon.

Mixed reef very light bio load right now but do have hair algae and some dino

Thanks in advance

Rich

 

[brad65ford]

Chiming in here!. Running a BB sps 130g system for just about a year now manual carbon dosing ZeoStart3 along with ZeoBak and some other Zeo products. Stuff works, always 0 p04/0 no3 feed a lot 5 tangs and 4 smaller fish never had cayno once in the system. But i think I'm taking to much nutrients from the tank since i'm carbon dosing, skimming, filter socks, and BB even feeding heavy. Though the corals are health and growing, in the past 've had better color and growth when I used to run a system with out carbon dosing, skimming or filter socks I basically just did water changes and detritus removal. Believe the theory behind running ulns (0 p04/0 no3) would be to supplement with coral food/bacteria which we all are doing by carbon dosing and feeding heavy or having high nutrients to begin with. But we are not giving the suggested flock of food without a zeoreactor, yes? On a side note there two separate awesome article on someone testing what was in skim mate and also what was in filter socks. In short the skim mate was believed to be a brake down of diatoms (broken) and the filter socks are mostly green algae. Wondering how much this removal of (stuff) effects carbon dosing as in it would be better to be in the system so the carbon can brake it down for coral food. Meaning if someone has a super clean system and wants to carbon dose they should run a smaller skimmer, don't run filter socks, get more fish, feed more?

Oh that brings up another subject. What about green algae dust on the glass? This perplexes me all the time. Though my system is very low / stripped system (what i believe with testing) by using carbon dosing I don't' understand why i get the green alage on the glass so much. My rocks have coraline growing on them but not the glass or bottom of the BB tank. Its as if i still have P04 that im not seeing in the test kits or some type of balance is off. Or the corilana just hasn't triggered (started growing) and using the available nutrients since there are none.

This is a complex thing since its all guessing and testing. I've had better coraline algae growth on systems that i let run with out water change and skimming which is strange. What brought me to this thread was "guess the p04 thread" which is the opposite of what i'm doing lol. Sorry to ramble though i've been confused on a few of these subject related to carbon dosing since i believe i'm doing something correct yet there is still somethings off.

 

[tmz]

Nice honest post. Much of the information on organic carbon dosing is surmise whichever method you choose.

I have not used the Zeo system. I think zero PO4 and zero fixed nitrogen are not generally optimal goals( all living things including corals need them), though I've seen some splendid zeo set ups reliant mostly on a myriad of supplements ;just seems stripping it all down creates a rather complex reliance on costly heavy supplements beyond food. I seem to get enough floc without a reactor when dosing soluble organic carbon like vodka and vinegar.

I don't think reducing skimming is a plus; there is a potential for organic carbon buildup without it as a primary removal method not to mention the aeration benefits.

Perhaps one of the zeo supplements advantages single celled algae that forms on the glass. Honestly , I don't get much of it,once a week cleaning is usually sufficient and coraline growth is good.

 

[FlintIan]

I've read through most of this and many other posts regarding vinegar dosing and I am grateful for everyone’s input. Although I usually try to find my answers in these forums and avoid bothering everyone in the reefing community I just can't seem to find what I am looking for. Please help.

Here is my situation. After years of giving up even testing Nitrates (they were always at 0) I finally figured I might have a problem and got a new test kit. Turns out my nitrates are through the roof and I am now going to start vinegar dosing. So here is where my tank is now:

200 Gallons total water volume
Radion LED’s for light
ETS skimmer (probably should upgrade my pump)
40 Gallon refugium (plenty of rock in the system)

I dose 2 Part

Phosphates .04 (Been running GFO for the last month or so, normally my phosphates go way up if I don’t do something about it = 1.00)
Alkalinity = 9.5
Calcium = 410
Mag = 1,300
PH =8.0

My tank is mostly softies with some LPS and a few large clams. Trying to go SPS but obviously I need to wok on my Nitrates.

Medium stocked with fish. System has been up and running for 3 years with 3 inches of sand (Probably why my nitrates are so high)

Sooooo, here is my question. I saw somewhere that Randy was dosing his vinegar upstream from a reactor he had with depleted GAC that he used to help farm the good bacteria. I was thinking of doing that with maybe an upgrade. After going through my depleted GAC I wanted to run the water into two more filters filled with crushed or small live rock.

Should I periodically take out the media and rinse it or am I defeating the whole point of using it? If so, how often?

I am wondering if anyone out there is doing what Randy used to and possibly still does? Any help would be appreciated and thank you guys for all of your great advice.

Flint

 

[RobZilla04]

Quick question from a beginner. I've got some spots of cyano pooping up, a few relatively thick. Nitrates are testing below 5 ppm. Am okay to start vodka/vinegar dosing or should I run chemi clean first?

 

[OzIA]

Dilution Limits

Dilution Limits

Hi , Finally time to answer questions and respond to comments.

For those who want to dose vodka or vinegar for the organic carbon with an auto doser, dilution can be an issue especially for vodka as small amounts are dosed. Vinegar is 5% acetic acid and 95% water. At that level the ph is such that bacteria don't grow. If it's heavily diluted the bacteria will proliferate right in the dosing reservoir consuming the vinegar . The same is true for vodka( 80 proof is 40% ethanol) where the alcohol concentration keeps the bacteria at bay.
The ph of limewater( around 12.4 at full saturation) also thwarts the opportunistic bacteria .So it can serve as a dosing pool for the organic carbon source as well the alkalinity and calcium from the calcium hydroxide. Some use a vinegar or vodka or both in an auto top off mixed with limewater.
The vinegar should be dosed primarily during periods of photosynthesis as it adds a lot of CO2 quickly which makes it a little tricky to use it in an ato set up .

Limewater calcium hydroxide staruation levels can be increased by up to 36% by adding vinegar . With 48ml of vinegar per gallon of ro water the saturation level goes from 2 tsps per gallon to 2.72 tsps per gallon. A recommended starting level is 12ml per gallon to avoid overdosing organic carbon early on . At 12 ml of vinegar per gallon of ro water the saturation level goes to 2.09tsps per gallon. Adding a little extra calcium hydroxide powder is ok as it will settle out but to keep the ph high(12.4) and maximize the calcium and alkalinity dose at least 2.09 tsps should be added when 12 ml of vinegar are added on up to 2.72 tsps with a little extra when 48ml are added. Beyond 48ml extra vinegar will not raise saturation levels further.

Adding vodka to limewater will not increase saturation levels nor will it interact with vinegar if both are added.

Tom,
Early on in this thread, you mentioned that dilution of ethanol or vinegar can allow bacteria to consume the organic carbon source in the container. Can you advise at what levels that starts to occur, for both 80 proof vodka and vinegar?

 

[mindi]

Vinegar

Vinegar

Tom and others.
Let me add my thanks for this thread. If you have a question it takes some time to go back to 2012 to see if it is already answered. I hope I have done that.

I use now 15ml of NOPOX daily in 100gallons and with NOPOX now over $40 litre here I am thinking of switching to a "homemade" carbon source ...Vinegar or Vodka. The bottom shelf vodka is also that price here, so vinegar alone appeals on cost.
I havent been able to find an answer to whether I can use just vinegar or if I need to use both..? I manage phosphates with a TLF 150 and Rowaphos and plan to build a refugium at my coming upgrade to get better value from Rowaphos or even stop using it (unlikely). NOPOX seems to me to play only a very indirect part in Phosphate reduction.. operating costs are obviously playing a significant part in planning the new bigger tank.

Can you either tell me succintly the suggested starting point for vinegar alone, or vinegar/vodka...? or redirect me back to a previous post I might have missed.

PS.... have just found a post where you recommend 10ml working up to 40ml for 110G. Cool, still unclear on the with or without Vodka question.

Many Thanks............John (Australia)

 

[flgoose]

Tom and others.
Let me add my thanks for this thread. If you have a question it takes some time to go back to 2012 to see if it is already answered. I hope I have done that.

I use now 15ml of NOPOX daily in 100gallons and with NOPOX now over $40 litre here I am thinking of switching to a "homemade" carbon source ...Vinegar or Vodka. The bottom shelf vodka is also that price here, so vinegar alone appeals on cost.
I havent been able to find an answer to whether I can use just vinegar or if I need to use both..? I manage phosphates with a TLF 150 and Rowaphos and plan to build a refugium at my coming upgrade to get better value from Rowaphos or even stop using it (unlikely). NOPOX seems to me to play only a very indirect part in Phosphate reduction.. operating costs are obviously playing a significant part in planning the new bigger tank.

Can you either tell me succintly the suggested starting point for vinegar alone, or vinegar/vodka...? or redirect me back to a previous post I might have missed.

PS.... have just found a post where you recommend 10ml working up to 40ml for 110G. Cool, still unclear on the with or without Vodka question.

Many Thanks............John (Australia)

I am dosing my 300 gal tank with vinegar alone and its working fine. Im dosing up to 210ml per day and my skimmer is producing dark skimmate and plenty of it. I started at 172ml per day and gradually increase from there. When i got to 250ml per day i noticed my water turning milky. I knew it was the bacteria multiplying way more that my skimmer was taking out so i dialed back the amount per day till my display was always clear.

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[roli112]

No to get a 1004 ml mixture of 75% ethanol to 25% acetic acid , you would need to mix 274 ml of 80 proof vodka with 730 ml of 5% acetic acid vinegar.

This mixture will be significantly stronger than just 1000ml vinegar since each ml of vodka is 8xs as strong as vinegar .

So the 274 ml of vodka is equivalent to 8x 274 or 2,192ml of vinegar .Then adding the the 730ml of vinegar gives you 2,192 plus 730 or 2,922 vinegar equivalents. This mixture holds almost 3xs as much organic carbon in the 1004ml as 1000ml of vinegar alone. So, to keep the same dose you need to redcue the amount of solution dosed to about 1/3 of the pure vinegar solution dosed now.

To be clear, (not done reading through the whole thread so not sure if this is still the best advice) Im currently dosing 25ml of vinegar only spread over 4 hours. If I make the 274ml of vodka and 730ml of vinegar solution, I would now dose 8.33ml of the new mix? Should I just make the switch right away or should I lower the dose and work my way up to 8.33? Thanks again for all the great info and help.

 

[Scooby1]

This may have been answered elsewhere. I have been dosing about 60ml a day into a 700l system for about 7 weeks, nitrates where about 25-50 and now between 10 and 25 (salifert). However what has happened during this time on 2 occasions my phos reactor has got bound up by the bacteria building a home in it. I do not have any rock or other media in the sump. Has anyone else experiened this? The Nick

 

[bif24701]

Yes, reactors will clog due to the thick bacteria growth. You can try putting the output for your carbon down stream from the intake of the reactor. That way it will go through the tank before going into the reactor. You can start reducing a little.

What I do is this. I have a BRS dual reactor and the fist one I fill with filter floss. This keep my tractor flowing for weeks, surprisingly the filter floss takes a while to clog. Seems that as parts get clogged they are pushed away opening new channels through the floss that are not clogged. Just have to pack it the right way.


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[Scooby1]

What do you mean by reduce a little, am I dosing to high? I only have a single reactor so this is going be a regular problem then ?thx Nick

 

[bif24701]

What do you mean by reduce a little, am I dosing to high? I only have a single reactor so this is going be a regular problem then ?thx Nick

How much are you dosing and why?

It can be, but most who need it just as a maintenance add very little so it doesn't develop think like that.

Is your doser output close to the reactor?


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[Scooby1]

I am dosing to reduce nitrates, have tried with water changes and can't shift it.as per 1st post dosing 60ml a day into 1st section and reactor is in 2nd section.

 

[erndog1001]

This may have been answered elsewhere. I have been dosing about 60ml a day into a 700l system for about 7 weeks, nitrates where about 25-50 and now between 10 and 25 (salifert). However what has happened during this time on 2 occasions my phos reactor has got bound up by the bacteria building a home in it. I do not have any rock or other media in the sump. Has anyone else experiened this? The Nick

Holy crap thats a huge dose. :eek1:

 

[Scooby1]

Holy crap thats a huge dose. :eek1:

I am nowhere near 1ml per gallon, which people quote. What am interested to know is how people combat bacteria blooms in their reactors.

Thanks
Nick

 

[david00061]

I am nowhere near 1ml per gallon, which people quote. What am interested to know is how people combat bacteria blooms in their reactors.

Thanks
Nick

Where did you hear 1 ml per gallon. I'm running 700 gallons and at most I'm dosing 60 ml a day. And that's a lot.

 

[david00061]

I am nowhere near 1ml per gallon, which people quote. What am interested to know is how people combat bacteria blooms in their reactors.

Thanks
Nick

Are talking about vinager or vodka?

 

[Scooby1]

Where did you hear 1 ml per gallon. I'm running 700 gallons and at most I'm dosing 60 ml a day. And that's a lot.

On here in this thread


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1813810

 

[Scooby1]

Are talking about vinager or vodka?

I am dosing vinegar