Volcano club
- Thread starter tom obrecht
- Start date
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Well, I met up with Tom last week and put an airflow meter on his Volcano. Its an RMC with 1/2" fittings, so it will be the least restrictive of any airflow meter... so no error there. Not to mention, the results wouldnt be off by THIS MUCH:
The bubble density and flow in Tom's look very similar to that which gopack is getting in his, and Tom's has the new removable inserts for the venturi. This skimmer is getting 45-50 scfh... which is only 1270-1400lph of air. No wonder Tom's tank has been in a perpetual state of crashing since he removed the Deltec 902... the 902 was getting more air. As it is, Tom and Bill (gopack) have to have their waterlines so high in the neck that if they turn off the skimmers, the airline is too short and water comes out. They are also so touchy with the gate valve that they either cant get the skimmate up far enough, or the cup ends up overflowing.
Tom has been trying to get a hold of Scott via phone, email, etc... since we met last week, but no response... no support. So now I'm posting what I know.
It seems like the important 'missing link' here is that in order to get enough air on the Volcano, you need to use a linear air pump. It seems like all those who are proponents of them have Alita AL-40's driving the air into the dart. Those who have the ones that are not force fed might really want to look into it. For force feeding, you should remove the venturi and just use straight piping into the pump. You dont want to have any sort of restriction at the air inlet (venturi) because with that much air going into the pump, you might end up choking off the water flow too much... so letting the pump run as free as possible is the main idea. As it is, you can put a bleed valve in the air inlet and you have the gate valve on the pump's intake so you can adjust the air and water inlets to get things just right. Im sure that there may be some point where the bubbles passing through the pump will get too large, so restricting the water intake a little or bleeding off some of that air is a good idea. For those who dont have a linear air pump on your Volcano, you might consider the same. Alita's are everyone's first pick it seems since they are tried and true, and tend to be the quietest. Another brand though, if you arent so concerned about noise (not that they are bad, but they just arent as muffled) are the GAST pumps... which if you see the Alita's and GAST's side by side, you would swear they are the same pump. I have a feeling once you add the linear air pump to the Volcanoes, they will perform just fine.... the waterlines can drop in the neck so overflows arent a problem, and your tank's wont be in a perpetual crash. Tom's tank has brown/red fuzzy cyano-looking algae all over, and his organic levels have clearly spiked... he should have the air pump sometime next week (since he cant seem to even get a hold of Spazz to return this thing because its clearly not working, he's trying to make the best of it).
The bubble density and flow in Tom's look very similar to that which gopack is getting in his, and Tom's has the new removable inserts for the venturi. This skimmer is getting 45-50 scfh... which is only 1270-1400lph of air. No wonder Tom's tank has been in a perpetual state of crashing since he removed the Deltec 902... the 902 was getting more air. As it is, Tom and Bill (gopack) have to have their waterlines so high in the neck that if they turn off the skimmers, the airline is too short and water comes out. They are also so touchy with the gate valve that they either cant get the skimmate up far enough, or the cup ends up overflowing.
Tom has been trying to get a hold of Scott via phone, email, etc... since we met last week, but no response... no support. So now I'm posting what I know.
It seems like the important 'missing link' here is that in order to get enough air on the Volcano, you need to use a linear air pump. It seems like all those who are proponents of them have Alita AL-40's driving the air into the dart. Those who have the ones that are not force fed might really want to look into it. For force feeding, you should remove the venturi and just use straight piping into the pump. You dont want to have any sort of restriction at the air inlet (venturi) because with that much air going into the pump, you might end up choking off the water flow too much... so letting the pump run as free as possible is the main idea. As it is, you can put a bleed valve in the air inlet and you have the gate valve on the pump's intake so you can adjust the air and water inlets to get things just right. Im sure that there may be some point where the bubbles passing through the pump will get too large, so restricting the water intake a little or bleeding off some of that air is a good idea. For those who dont have a linear air pump on your Volcano, you might consider the same. Alita's are everyone's first pick it seems since they are tried and true, and tend to be the quietest. Another brand though, if you arent so concerned about noise (not that they are bad, but they just arent as muffled) are the GAST pumps... which if you see the Alita's and GAST's side by side, you would swear they are the same pump. I have a feeling once you add the linear air pump to the Volcanoes, they will perform just fine.... the waterlines can drop in the neck so overflows arent a problem, and your tank's wont be in a perpetual crash. Tom's tank has brown/red fuzzy cyano-looking algae all over, and his organic levels have clearly spiked... he should have the air pump sometime next week (since he cant seem to even get a hold of Spazz to return this thing because its clearly not working, he's trying to make the best of it).
JCTewks
In Memoriam
I'm, still not so sure WHY everyone is jumpnig on the dart bandwagon? they are really not that great of a skimmer pump
They move too much water, not enough air, and pull lots of watts compared to what you can get from other large aspirating pumps. Not to mention that they are external only and can't get wet. Sure, you can get good air #'s if force feeding them, but I can do the same to any pump and make it look good.
They move too much water, not enough air, and pull lots of watts compared to what you can get from other large aspirating pumps. Not to mention that they are external only and can't get wet. Sure, you can get good air #'s if force feeding them, but I can do the same to any pump and make it look good.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13272674#post13272674 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Well, I met up with Tom last week and put an airflow meter on his Volcano. Its an RMC with 1/2" fittings, so it will be the least restrictive of any airflow meter... so no error there. Not to mention, the results wouldnt be off by THIS MUCH:
The bubble density and flow in Tom's look very similar to that which gopack is getting in his, and Tom's has the new removable inserts for the venturi. This skimmer is getting 45-50 scfh... which is only 1270-1400lph of air. No wonder Tom's tank has been in a perpetual state of crashing since he removed the Deltec 902... the 902 was getting more air. As it is, Tom and Bill (gopack) have to have their waterlines so high in the neck that if they turn off the skimmers, the airline is too short and water comes out. They are also so touchy with the gate valve that they either cant get the skimmate up far enough, or the cup ends up overflowing.
Tom has been trying to get a hold of Scott via phone, email, etc... since we met last week, but no response... no support. So now I'm posting what I know.
It seems like the important 'missing link' here is that in order to get enough air on the Volcano, you need to use a linear air pump. It seems like all those who are proponents of them have Alita AL-40's driving the air into the dart. Those who have the ones that are not force fed might really want to look into it. For force feeding, you should remove the venturi and just use straight piping into the pump. You dont want to have any sort of restriction at the air inlet (venturi) because with that much air going into the pump, you might end up choking off the water flow too much... so letting the pump run as free as possible is the main idea. As it is, you can put a bleed valve in the air inlet and you have the gate valve on the pump's intake so you can adjust the air and water inlets to get things just right. Im sure that there may be some point where the bubbles passing through the pump will get too large, so restricting the water intake a little or bleeding off some of that air is a good idea. For those who dont have a linear air pump on your Volcano, you might consider the same. Alita's are everyone's first pick it seems since they are tried and true, and tend to be the quietest. Another brand though, if you arent so concerned about noise (not that they are bad, but they just arent as muffled) are the GAST pumps... which if you see the Alita's and GAST's side by side, you would swear they are the same pump. I have a feeling once you add the linear air pump to the Volcanoes, they will perform just fine.... the waterlines can drop in the neck so overflows arent a problem, and your tank's wont be in a perpetual crash. Tom's tank has brown/red fuzzy cyano-looking algae all over, and his organic levels have clearly spiked... he should have the air pump sometime next week (since he cant seem to even get a hold of Spazz to return this thing because its clearly not working, he's trying to make the best of it).
Not to be a hater, but my new mini 200 BK pulls that much air. That is not good. Great skimmer bodies, who are dieing to have a new pump on THEM!!
You can get that much air from a single Sicce at 20 watts!!! What is the height of that model Jon? I can't believe these are pulling that litlle air for the size of those bodies. you could get 4000lph in there no problem!!
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
These are the 4' tall models.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
I believe its 4' tall total.
JRaquatics
New member
The Reeflo 200 stock pulls 38-42scfh.
The Reeflo 250 stock pulls 60-65scfh.
Reeflo 200 W/ Pro kit pulls 90scfh with the 250 NW (the 200 wheel is in the works and is gearing for 65-70.
The Reeflo 250 Prokit is pulling 100+scfh
tom obrecht
Active member
Thanks to Hahn for coming over to test what we both suspected in the air volume. So far this has been a very disapponting endeavor. Don't get me wrong with the construction of the skimmer...that seems solid. The problem has been with promised delivery times, getting ahold of Scott at Aquatic Acrylics, being a "test subject" to fix design flaws and now follow through with what was promised. I have left numerous emails and phone messages NONE of which have been answered. Since he has left me "high and dry" so to speak my only option is to try forced air into the skimmer via and air pump which I was told the first time I talked to Scott prior to ordering that one was not needed. The frustrating thing is that this whole time my tank has taken a nose dive for the worse. I have been contacted by others that have had the same issues so apparently this is NOT a one time thing. I will keep every one posted on the outcome of the air pump installtion hopefully later this week.
The last time I spoke with Scott about a month ago, he had mentioned that the 1850's may need air pumps since the venturi's were not allowing enough air. He was working on trying to fix this in his design, but IMO adding an air pump is not a big deal. I am putting one on this week, so I will update to everyone how it goes. I am hoping this will alieviate the issue of the water level needing to be higher than the highest point in the air tube. It is storm season up here so I have had 4 power outages in 2 weeks, and my floor seems to be perpetually wet lately. I thought I was just having trouble finding the sweet spot until I read some of the posts on this page and realized I was not the only one having this issue.
tom obrecht
Active member
I agree adding an air pum p is not a huge deal...what I'm frustrated about is that the last months of issues with my tank could have been avoided if Scott had either mentioned to me right from the start I might need to force feed the skimmer or send all parts that he made (none of which worked) from the start. I thought I was purchasing a skimmer that was tested and running without issue. Now I not only have to work to get the skimmer up and running (on my own none the less) but try and save what livestock hasn't died from this transition of skimmers.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Well, it really comes down to the height. I think its plainly obvious that without a pressure assisted air input, you are looking at a pump that is much larger than a dart to get 3000+lph if its pumping against 3-4' of water pressure.
I noticed that all the venturi inserts were in the 1.3 to 1.4 inch range. This is odd to me, because for the flow of the pump, I would think that a smaller venturi would be better for more air. On the Laguna based pumps, the ones with similar flow/wattage use a 1" or even 7/8" diameter venturi. Now, this isnt 'talking crap' or something, as I suspect that the dart might be slightly different, or that restricting it that much might cause it to choke/overheat... but from seeing how Scott's venturis were assembled, I really wonder what his understanding of a venturi might be, esp since the gate valve is used in many cases to 'tweak' the intake... which means that there is significant headroom for venturi improvement.
That being said, I still dont see this motor pulling much more than say, 2000lph (if that) even with a good venturi simply due to the height of the skimmer. I think its safe to assume that ALL Volcanoes, unless 3' and under, are better off with a linear air pump.
Another method could be to swap out the bodies for a cone. I wonder why Spazz hasn't tried making a full cone like the ATB/KZ's, since his current 'half-pipe' methods to create a cylinder, as well as the transition would be replaced by one 3-4' tall cone. A cone, besides its other claimed benefits, would allow for the 4' tall Volcano to run with a waterline about 12" lower than it is right now. I have noticed that on many Volcanoes, there is a flange on the body right around the bubble plate. Simply making a cone body that could be swapped out for the current cylinder + reducer would be simple. Maybe some of you current owners would like to try it. You just have to have the twist lock and flange matched up. Making this cone body would be simpler for Spazz too since it eliminates having to make the reducer all together (you can look at it as him just having to make the two 'half-pipes', but it would actually mean less material than the two half-pipes due to the cone's taper... like so:
Just an idea... but I think it might work well. Currently, Tom's waterline is up in the neck... about where the #1 line is. With a cone body, the waterline could be lowered a bit since the midpoint of a cone is much lower than a cylinder... dont know how much... but this would also take the back pressure off the motor as well, so who knows how much lower it could go... maybe lower than the #2 line depending on how much air the pump can then take in. There may even be more than one 'sweet spot' as in, as the waterine goes down, the air intake continues to rise so that you could literally have a sweet spot where the waterline is at the top with less airflow, and then a sweet spot everywhere in between to a waterline that is only a foot or so above the bubble plate but the resulting air increase would still be pushing bubbles into the neck.
Just an idea...
I noticed that all the venturi inserts were in the 1.3 to 1.4 inch range. This is odd to me, because for the flow of the pump, I would think that a smaller venturi would be better for more air. On the Laguna based pumps, the ones with similar flow/wattage use a 1" or even 7/8" diameter venturi. Now, this isnt 'talking crap' or something, as I suspect that the dart might be slightly different, or that restricting it that much might cause it to choke/overheat... but from seeing how Scott's venturis were assembled, I really wonder what his understanding of a venturi might be, esp since the gate valve is used in many cases to 'tweak' the intake... which means that there is significant headroom for venturi improvement.
That being said, I still dont see this motor pulling much more than say, 2000lph (if that) even with a good venturi simply due to the height of the skimmer. I think its safe to assume that ALL Volcanoes, unless 3' and under, are better off with a linear air pump.
Another method could be to swap out the bodies for a cone. I wonder why Spazz hasn't tried making a full cone like the ATB/KZ's, since his current 'half-pipe' methods to create a cylinder, as well as the transition would be replaced by one 3-4' tall cone. A cone, besides its other claimed benefits, would allow for the 4' tall Volcano to run with a waterline about 12" lower than it is right now. I have noticed that on many Volcanoes, there is a flange on the body right around the bubble plate. Simply making a cone body that could be swapped out for the current cylinder + reducer would be simple. Maybe some of you current owners would like to try it. You just have to have the twist lock and flange matched up. Making this cone body would be simpler for Spazz too since it eliminates having to make the reducer all together (you can look at it as him just having to make the two 'half-pipes', but it would actually mean less material than the two half-pipes due to the cone's taper... like so:
Just an idea... but I think it might work well. Currently, Tom's waterline is up in the neck... about where the #1 line is. With a cone body, the waterline could be lowered a bit since the midpoint of a cone is much lower than a cylinder... dont know how much... but this would also take the back pressure off the motor as well, so who knows how much lower it could go... maybe lower than the #2 line depending on how much air the pump can then take in. There may even be more than one 'sweet spot' as in, as the waterine goes down, the air intake continues to rise so that you could literally have a sweet spot where the waterline is at the top with less airflow, and then a sweet spot everywhere in between to a waterline that is only a foot or so above the bubble plate but the resulting air increase would still be pushing bubbles into the neck.
Just an idea...
I hear ya. I luckily have not had any losses. the skimmer is skimming, I just want to make it skim better that is all. I just wanted you to know also that I was not downplaying the situation, I was just saying that if an air pump will fix it, it is an easy fix. It could be alot worse (from the skimmer problem standpoint)
Similar threads
