Volcano club

[hahnmeister]

Its funny how the 'fanboys' cant acknowledge the facts here. Most of the 'counter' opinions mentioned here are based on other opinions... not facts. Basing opinions on opinions isnt anywhere as valid as basing opinions on facts.

FACT: People have been sold a product that does not perform as expected. How can you make excuses for that on behalf of anyone? People were led to believe they were getting 2000lph at least? 3600lph maybe? And in the end they were lucky to get 1500lph. Its as simple as that. I think if you go back and read my posts, you will see that I even got a compliment on not being biased, collecting my thoughts, and posting here with the goal of trying to help out my fellow reefers before their tanks end up like Tom's. Envy? I think not. My ATB XL kicks Volcano butt, but its not about that.

FACT: Spazz has not contacted Tom to correct the problem, either through a return of the product, or a part/solution to the skimmer. This seems to be true with more than one person.

Bashing? Some people just cant be made happy? Dirty Game? Get real guys. You lucked out and happen to be pleased with your product. I would go so far as to say that these people have been sold either an 'incomplete'(should include/require linear air pump) or 'defective'(does not perform as claimed) product, depending on how you look at it... so if you bought a car that was not what is was advertised to be, would it be excused because that car company is having a hard time right now? Or because 'other models are great and dont have the same problems' then those who complain about another model are the ones with the problem? That line of reasoning sounds pretty insane to me. But no... I suppose not... I suppose one of you would be more than willing to buy Tom's Volcano then, right? I mean 'nothing is wrong with it'... so none of you should think twice about running Tom's on your system vs. your own... without the linear air pump.

So 'Tom's tank crashing is all his fault', thats what you are saying then... you realize that, right? What was his fault? Trusting Spazz? Maybe... so fine... Tom made a mistake. He shouldn't have trusted Spazz... is that what you want to imply? It sounds like an excuse thats worse than the original problem... like a drunk driver saying 'its not my fault I got in an accident because I was drunk'.

What are the 'rules' here to be a customer of Spazz's... it seems like they are different than other products in this market. If they are different... where is the receipt and contract saying so? Where are the 'terms of buying'?

And the question I think everyone has in the back of their heads is still 'Where is Spazz?' No response in this thread. No calls. No resolution. Did this thread take a 'turn for the worse'? If you are a fanboy, yes, I can see that opinion. How bad will this thread get before a response? I was fully anticipating a response from Spazz defending his product... maybe 'putting me in my place' so to speak. The longer this thread goes without response, I have no doubt the comments will be worse and worse, or more people will chime in with their problems as well... maybe to 'force' a reaction ot of Spazz, and if not, to give a big 'buyer beware' to others.

I have no alterior motive here. When Tom has asked about 'what next' and narrowed it down to the BK and ATB... I didn't want to give a response on that one. I dont want to be biased, or even give the perception that I am based on anything other than fact. When Tom mentioned that he could get a BK400 for the price he could, I said 'well, heck, I would take that over the ATB just on price alone'. How I feel about this one model... the un-force fed model that I have seen on two people's systems now that doesnt perform up to its expectations... does not reflect how I feel about other Volcano models. It didnt reflect how I feel about Spazz even, until I started seeing a friend 'getting the shaft' from him. You guys gotta know... Tom is a very reserved, trusting, careful guy. I can tell that, as would you within minutes of meeting him. He is not like me in any way... I tend to be outspoken, speaking before I consider all my options, sometimes offensive because I 'call it how I see it' at the time, etc. I tend to be better with quick decisions, so thats how I operate, and sometimes I have to retract what I say. Please, provide me with a reason here Spazz, and I will. Tom is anything but that. He asked me not to post my air meter results until well after he could attempt to contact Spazz beforehand so as to preserve an amicable relationship with Spazz. His attempts were met with silence...

 

[tom obrecht]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13339982#post13339982 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
Nanook, you may have to move the thread again to the for sale forums as it may turn into a mass Volcano selling thread.:lol:

:lol: :lol:
By the way what is the record for a thread being moved to different forums? My bad!

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13339982#post13339982 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
Nanook, you may have to move the thread again to the for sale forums as it may turn into a mass Volcano selling thread.:lol:

It might be a great chance for someone with the cash and a good understanding in DIY skimmer work to pic up one of these used volcanos and get them to pull some air. Honestly I think it really has to do with the venturi and Pin wheel. The Venturis really need to be as close to the pumps volute to create the maximum vacuum. These are well built bodies and everything looks to be well fabricated, it just looks to be needing a little more R&D.

Lol... or rename the thread 'Volcano Support Group' for real. This thread might get moved again if it becomes a 'DIY job'.

I honestly dont think its possible to get a 120-160 watt motor to pull 3000+lph at 3+ feet of water pressure. If you do a venturi/thermodynamics calculation, I think you will see that its pretty much impossible, esp with a needlewheel. If you start with a venturi, there is a certain velocity that you need to achieve in the venturi to create enough suction and therefore flow of air through the air inlet... and this is partly based on the flow of water as well. Simply put... no matter what volute diameter or impeller you use... you arent going to hit it because the motor is just too small for it. You would need a larger pump because between the flow and the pressure, you are doing more than 160 watts worth of work in the first place... with 160 watts you can hit either the pressure OR the flow needed, but not both at once. And then things get even more complicated because we are talking a needlewheel, which means you have lost a good deal of pressure right off the bat by having air bubbles in the motor, AND you are restricting the flow because of the venturi on the pump intake.

On the Laguna's that hit 3000-4000lph, you are talking about a 7/8" to 1" venturi. Something tells me that if you put that kind of restriction on a Dart motor that it would start to overheat... it would also kill most of the pressure handling of the pump. Those Lagunas are running on short cone-body skimmers mind you... so the pressure on the pumps is minimal... putting one on a 4' tall cylinder would kill the air intake. Too small of a venturi on a pump intake also means the motor has less to work with, even though in theory the smaller the venturi, the higher the water velocity and the better the venturi action. The problem is that when you restrict the pump's intake too much, you need the pump to be more pressure biased to make up for it and maintain the suction... so needlewheels are much more complicated than becketts/venturi skimmers... thats for sure. You want a Dart that does 4000lph? Well... get a huge custom volute for it and put it on a cone body or something where the waterline can be only 12-18" above the pump... or you need a 200-300 watt motor, larger impeller, etc... in which case the 40 watts that a linear air pump provides is a deal. The thing is... if you are force feeding... the dart is even overkill for 4000lph. A Laguna could do it for about 85 watts... the extra wattage that a dart uses goes towards waterflow which it needs or else it will overheat from the 'restriction'. I have no doubt that with a volute/impeller well that is about 50% larger in volume that a Dart could handle 6000+lph of air (8000 most likely) if force fed. Its a good pump, but still a tad too pressure biased to be a 'great' needlewheel pump.

 

[JRaquatics]

How is it that the Reeflo 250 Pro can get a minimal of 100scfh (2,857LPH) at a total height of 39" and maxing out at 140watts? Is it because it only holds 10-12 gallons of water with its 13" body and tall neck? How different are the Smaller Volcanos than the Reeflo 250s?

 

[hahnmeister]

Two reasons: 1. it IS shorter. 2. by being a smaller diameter, the waterline is being dropped much like how a cone does... It might be 39" tall (is that the new one you mention with the really tall neck?) but much of that is neck, and the skimmer is a smaller diameter to begin with. I wont comment w/ regards to its turbulence (I haven't seen it, but I have seen other 12" diameter dart driven skimmers... still not quite the same), but a smaler diameter body, and the fact that the reducer is placed so low on its overall height is getting it a much lower waterline. The Volcanoes have their waterlines up in the collection cup height... The ReefFlos have kept their waterlines much lower. Also, Im sure the impeller has something to do with it. If Spazz's version is running at lower wattage... that may not be a good thing as it most likely means his version is providing less interface between the air/water mix than the others. Using mesh or several more 'pins' on the disk might be a way to make up for this. But even with a different needlewheel by some other make... I still doubt the 4' Volcanoes could do much more than 2000lph without dropping that wateline some more... that would be something that a 'cone retrofit' for the body could provide. Then, who knows... you might be able to hit 2800lph... dont know for sure.

 

[Energy]

I have no clue why Spazz doesn't respond to this thread other than wondering why he would want to participate in a witch hunt. I think he takes the higher ground and is trying to avoid any arguments. It's probably really hard for him Not to come on and put some people in their places.

Gosh it sures seems like we have a lot of people basing their opinions on "facts".

I propose this: Put your "facts" to the test and build a better skimmer! Get off the computer and go do it. If somebody has over 10,000 posts I'm sure they have tons of facts by now they could turn into reality. Make something, put your heart and soul into it, truly do your best work and then offer it to your fellow hobbyists. And then let us tear it apart with our "facts".

I know Spazz hasn't made a nickel of profit from his company. I know him well enough to state this as an actual fact. I also know him well enough to know he is doing his best and is fed up with people like this. I also know this fact- he is going to quite.

He started this small business truly trying to help people. He built me the best skimmer I have ever seen, the same thing for some others but not everyone, obviously.

During my last conversation with spazz he basically told me he was done. So for some of you in this thread- you got your wish, congratulations.

Now go back to your computer, find someone else to bash and maybe you can get your post count over 20,000(whoppee!)

On the other hand I will be going outside and having a life. I will probably take my kids for a bike ride, help my neighbor with his aquarium or do something constructive to help build others up.

 

[Energy]

I have no clue why Spazz doesn't respond to this thread other than wondering why he would want to participate in a witch hunt. I think he takes the higher ground and is trying to avoid any arguments. It's probably really hard for him Not to come on and put some people in their places.

Gosh it sures seems like we have a lot of people basing their opinions on "facts".

I propose this: Put your "facts" to the test and build a better skimmer! Get off the computer and go do it. If somebody has over 10,000 posts I'm sure they have tons of facts by now they could turn into reality. Make something, put your heart and soul into it, truly do your best work and then offer it to your fellow hobbyists. And then let us tear it apart with our "facts".

I know Spazz hasn't made a nickel of profit from his company. I know him well enough to state this as an actual fact. I also know him well enough to know he is doing his best and is fed up with people like this. I also know this fact- he is going to quite.

He started this small business truly trying to help people. He built me the best skimmer I have ever seen, the same thing for some others but not everyone, obviously.

During my last conversation with spazz he basically told me he was done. So for some of you in this thread- you got your wish, congratulations.

Now go back to your computer, find someone else to bash and maybe you can get your post count over 20,000(whoppee!)

On the other hand I will be going outside and having a life. I will probably take my kids for a bike ride, help my neighbor with his aquarium or do something constructive to help build others up.

 

[hahnmeister]

I already did Energy...

32" tall, 19" diameter base... Side by side, its running against a Volcano and handing its butt to it.

 

[hahnmeister]

dp

 

[kajung2k]

hahnmeister --- hahaha

 

[kajung2k]

hahnmeister --- hahaha

 

[hahnmeister]

So by Aquatic Acrylics puts out a product which does not perform as claimed, doesnt remedy the problem, wont respond to customer complaints or offer refunds... so overall he is committing fraud and overall bad business practices, and you see this as 'taking the moral high-ground'?? Oh, yeah... thats a legal defense if I ever heard one... what a load of crap. 'Im not going to respond because Im better than that'... sounds like an easy cop-out to me. Sounds like these customers who got screwed were just stupid... to put their faith and trust into a company who doesn't deserve it. I suppose Spazz should have written that in a contract or something... 'if you complain too much, I wont call you back and Ill just quit'. Yeah... I wonder how many people would have signed onto that deal. I suppose if he is all about 'helping people out' and not about profit, then he wont mind taking a few returns then, would he?

People demanding a response is now considered a 'witch hunt'? When the going gets tough... quit and leave everyone SOL for customer support?

You know, Im trying to help some fellow reefers out here as well, and Im not even charging compensation for it either... so I suppose Im some sort of saint as well, huh?

If this is what it all boils down to... then yes, I am glad he quit. I think that anyone else would agree with me on this... you put out a product that doesnt work as claimed, you dont remedy it or offer support, act like you are 'above responding', and then quit when the going gets tough? But no, those who have a problem with getting shafted are the bad ones, the 'witch hunters' and the 'complainers'.

How about we see how happy you are after half those corals in your tank take a dive and your tank goes to the crapper because of your skimmer. Then we will see... maybe Spazz should 'take the high ground' and not respond to you then, and we will see how well you stick to your positive opinion then.

 

[reef2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13345675#post13345675 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
I already did Energy...

32" tall, 19" diameter base... Side by side, its running against a Volcano and handing its butt to it.

pwnd :lol:

 

[Reefaquariumnut]

I still wonder why I am getting foam with no air injection added...i guess once i get a big bioload i can see what happens. I like my skimmer and never will close the doors on a new one when the time comes if needed.

On the more recent note...

You all have excellent points. I can see where Tom, Hahn, Energy, etc are coming from. When you shell out $3000 you should get a product that works as stated. BUT if you know the skimmer you have doesn't have much R&D there could be problems...I don't know how many skimmers scott has built total but I almost could guess its under 50. People who bought his skimmer should have done their research and weighed the pros with the cons. Measure twice and cut once mentality. Don't always weigh your decision on the guy who is making the product...could be heavily bias. I read a lots of threads, called a couple people, whet to scott's shop, compared other models, researched other sites, and made a decision. I got lucky, I had scott hook up and adjusted everything like he would to his own tank.

I know everyone can't do everything I did, but then you should go with a more safe choice. kinda like buying a stock sports car or a hand-built modified sports car. Its a risk-reward deal. If scott would not have did all the other stuff he did for me I probably would not have bought his skimmer. There was a handful of other products I was looking at but those products would have been installed and adjusted by me. I was looking for a company that would give me a package deal. So far i am happy as could be, but its early and I haven't had problems yet...If Scott closes his company I am not sure what that means for support.

Maybe Scott can learn from his mistakes and right the ship. I wish him the best. Also, I think we all could learn some valuable lessons from this thread.

 

[Energy]

32" tall, 19" diameter base... Side by side, its running against a Volcano and handing its butt to it

Yeah-no bias there.

Since you have his to "test"why don't you send one of yours to me and I'll test it against my neighbors mini volcano. I really have nothing to gain or lose and will give a second opinion as will my neighbor. If not then no biggie.

Earlier I basically said put your money where your mouth is and you did- congradulations. Now let someone else check it out.


Reefaquariumnut- nicely said.

 

[hahnmeister]

I dont like playing that card for that very reason. I can tell you I have no bias in this case, but if you believe me or not, well... I will also conceed that there is no such thing as an unbiased opinion... no matter how fair we try to be ourselves, there is no telling how fair we can really be in the end. But, I will point out that when Tom asked me what he should look at... and he asked in particular 'ATB vs. BK'?... I was rather reluctant to give an opinion. I would rather have Tom go to the ATB and BK forums and see for himself from other people who are 'pure users'. At one point, off the bat, when he told me what price he could get a used BK400 for, I said 'heck, I would go with that then... thats a hard deal to beat' (except older BK's tend to have half the air of the new ones so I did change my standpoint on that to 'you are getting what you pay for', but the Octopus Pro 300's with Laguna 1500 needlewheels might also be worth looking into). I can give him stats, a personal opinion on performance and design based on the specs and performance that I have observed, but I know those things can even vary from situation to situation. One person might love a BK mini, and another might have a bio-load on their system that is too low to keep it fed.

But Energy, you did ask for it... so I showed you. I spec'ed out the pump and dimensions on that skimmer, and it is being run side by side against the Volcano (same model as Tom's). So no need to prove anything there... anyone can go see it at Midwest Saltwater for themselves. Being that the ATB gets 3000+lph and the Volcano gets 1400lph... well... that shouldnt be a shocker. The skimmer in question isnt that one, but the Volcano 'un-fed' version... Maybe you could take Tom's or something and compare to yours... then you would see what all the commotion is about.

'Nut, you do bring up good points, but I dont think those were ever brought up until now for Volcano customers. If Spazz had included actual specs and disclosed that 'he may not get back to you' or support his product in the long run... how much do you want to bet Tom would not have bought one? Im sure these are things that 'didnt come up'... Right on the Aquatic Acrylics site, it says 'the best skimmers'. From 'rave reviews' like the ones you give Energy, Spazz has been made out to be a 'stand up guy who wont let you down'... right?

Well, I would imagine Spazz has taken an airflow meter to these skimmers, no? Only getting 1400lph... he had to know, but he still sold them.

 

[Reefaquariumnut]

Those are questions we will never know...

 

[hahnmeister]

Well, I must apologize to Spazz. I was unaware of this, but it seems that he has been threatened with being banned if he were to respond here (or who knows under what terms) by the RC mods... so thats why. So he is reading, just cant respond. That doesnt exactly make up for not following up with his customers, but at that, I will take back what I have said here about him being a 'no show'... I didnt know, and thats simply not fair. Perhaps there is another forum, like Creative Reefing, where he could be more 'interactive'. But I dont want to continue here if he doesnt even have the option of responding.

 

[Herpervet]

Ok Let me apologize in advance for a long post.

I have been silent on this as I am very reluctant to say anything that would be viewed as criticism. I really like Scott and he has spent a lot of time on the phone with me. Lately, as others have noted, he hasn't been available.

I sincerely hope he is ok.

I have had the 18" diameter x 48 inch main body. Total height is around 6 feet.

I installed it over a year ago. Since then I have lost lots of sps. I had been running a PM Bullet XL (beckett) with very good results really.

My skimmer is fed with an Alita 60. It has an 8 inch diameter neck.

I have had some minor wormanship issues, i.e. the rods that mount the carbon filter in the collection cup came off as did the rod that mounts the bubble diffuser plate.

The main components of the skimmer have been rock solid.


I can live without the carbon filter and zip ties fix the bubble plate after a couple of holes drilled.

The main issue is that regardless of anything we came up with including 3 different pinwheels, adding a kill-a- watt meter etc. Bleeding off various amounts of air etc. etc.

I couldn't get the kind of bubble density and skimmate I expected.

(I have a heavily stocked 550 gallon display with 1300 gallons of water in the system.)

Finally a few months ago I mesh modified the pinwheel. After that the skimmer took the entire output of the Alita 60 without any air bled off and produced a very dense foam head for the first time.

Still there are too many larger bubbles and the density in the column is not close to that of smaller aspirating venturi skimmers but I had very good skimmate production (1/2 to 1 gallon of light to med. tea colored skimmate daily) and my corals were growing and thriving.

Then things went south again a few weeks ago and I began to lose lots of SPS colonies.

Well, my skimmer is at our office and I rely on staff to do basic maintenance. ( This isn't Scott's fault.) The amount of skimmate varies but at times feedings are missed etc. So a couple of days of decreased skimmate isn't too alarming.

I finally noticed and confirmed decreased skimming and couldn't figure out why. The pump was running and the bubble density didn't look much different really. I pulled off the meshwheel and cleaned out a lot of collected gravel.

Replaced it and after about 3 hours of repeated problems including breaking off the bolts that hold the volute cover in place and trips to the machine shop supply etc. I figured out that the seal was leaking and fixed it. Still the new meshwheel didn't improve the skimmate.

Long story short, one of the diaphragms in the Alita had torn and it wasn't injecting enough air anymore.

So I ordered the kit and fixed the diaphragms.

Once again the skimmer is producing 1/2 gallon to 1 gallon of light tea colored skimmate daily. Fairly strong odor. The pump has a major vibration issue now so I need to screw with it some more.

Honestly, in this hobby it is very difficult to truly know the cause when corals are lost. Many variables can be involved. So I can only say that I strongly suspect I lost said corals from the skimmer malfunction and lack of servicing of the alita.

I also had temperature issues. (went up to 84 this summer). I changed lighting etc. Added a chiller finally but my corals kept dying.

We will see in a few weeks if things rebound although I now have to re-aquire some very rare corals at substantial cost.

If I were to offer constructive criticism/ideas to improve the product I would say this:

1. Make sure the Alita is serviced and Scott should probably sell the pump with a diaphragm replacement kit and advise servicing every 8 months or so. I honestly don't recall if he ever mentioned this or not. The information is available however so I have to take some of the responsibility for not knowing this.

2. Re-design the recirculating pump/pinwheel which I believe Scott is already doing.

2b. Consider using a larger pump in aspirating venturi fashion and sacrifice the energy consumption.

i.e. there is a reason that H&S and Deltec have designed their commercial skimmers using larger pumps that consume much more power. (1100 watts and 770 watts respectively) Given the cost of electricity in Europe I bet they looked at all their options yet still chose these energy hogs.

I believe that the process of venturi aspiration inherently produces more uniform and finer bubbles. I am not at all well versed in fluid dynamics but this is what I observe after looking at all kinds of pumps that suck air via the venturi process.

For example, my little HOT1 by precision marine that uses a little tiny rio pump produces nothing but fine bubbles.

In contrast, I could never get my dart needlewheel to produce uniform fine bubbles regardless of how many watts are being pulled or how much air is bled off.

There are always a percentage of larger bubbles. This doesn't mean it won't do the job. It simply means some efficiency is lost. (I suspect a substantial amount is lost).

3. Short and fat makes more sense than tall and skinny. i.e. energy has a 24" diameter skimmer than is considerably shorter than my 18" diameter skimmer volcano.

Shorter means any large bubbles have less momentum by the time they reach the surface and therefore create less turbulence. In addition (and perhaps more importantly) it will be easier to operate without force-feeding due to lower head pressure.

4. Find a way to either make the pinwheels with many, many more pins that are thinner OR find a pump that has more RPM's. The pins on most smaller aspirating needlewheel are much smaller and closer together.

I once ran across a toothbrush on the web that is made with titanium bristles. If you could build a pinwheel out of these bristle bundles you might have something!

5. Perhaps sell mesh mod kits. This really seemed to help me.


6. All of these larger skimmers should include a valve at the base to quickly drain the skimmer. It is a huge hassle to do this without one and it makes the frustration that much worse. These skimmers hold a LOT of water. I know a drain pump can be added as an option and it should be standard imo.

7. Add valves on the outlet side of the dart so that the pump can be removed without draining the skimmer. It would cut out a huge amount of time in servicing the pump.


I just want to say. I really like Scott. He has always been very patient in talking to me even if we didn't always agree on what to do about some of these issues.

He is a very good guy and I hope he is able to take the product to the next level. I believe he still can have a world class product.

 

[hahnmeister]

Hmm.. the Alita 60 tops out at about 5600lph... maybe slightly less than that on your height of skimmer (the 4' tall ones put no back pressure on the air pump even with the venturis removed, but 6' tall is a different story). That is pretty good for that 18" diameter... 6000-8000 being the sweet spot (but who really needs that much?). I can see that being slightly too much for a single Dart pump though. Since you are force feeding though, I dont think you need a larger motor so much as a larger pump volute (perhaps impeller as well). With the darts, I suppose this isnt so easy... But with a Laguna 4200, its dead easy. You can get a custom volute machined, pop it on the 4200, and let er rip. Its actually a smaller motor than the dart (by just a little), but its not about the power so much as the volute volume. Otherwise, assuming your version doesnt have a venturi on the pump intake at all (pointless if you know you are going to be force feeding), you might want to use the gate valve on the pump intake to slow down the water passing through the pump... at full flow, it might simply pass the bubbles too quickly to get blended well.

Another idea might be to work with the air input as well. If its a single large pipe going into the pump, it might be blowing some rather large chunky bubbles. Maybe you could replace this inlet with a 'spraybar' sort of pipe... something that has multiple 1/8" air holes (perpendicular or facing into the water flow) rather than one large one. This way the bubbles should be smaller going into the pump in the first place. Most times with needlewheels this isnt a problem, but when you are force feeding more air into a pump than it would otherwise be able to suck in on its own under the best of circumatances, it just might not have the water velocity at the air inlet to start shredding the air starting at this point... so the pump has to deal with larger bubbles coming in.