Volcano club

[mavgi]

Here is what i think :

you can reduce the feeding volume and test it and see if the bubbl reduce .... truly i don't think it will reduce but you can test that .....

AS i saw you still run the mesh mod on the skimmer (the green skimate it's how the mesh work...) ? if yes then IMO it's the inlet of the pump to wide & the pump push more water then air and this is cause to the bubble jump up .....

i don't know how the skimmer build and if you can take the bubble plate out to see how it's work i believe you will need to reduce the water level and even with stronger turbulence you will get better skimming result , another option it's to put reducer in the inlet this will cut down the bubbles but also the air.... so you will need to see what is better to you and if it's good or not... play with different size of PVC Bush Reducer .

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13522513#post13522513 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nanook
I have a Panworld 150PS that pushes 790gph at 4ft of head as the feed pump into the bottom side of the skimmer.

FWIW, I am just tweaking or thinking of things that could make the skimmer work better, but my skimmate for a week was about 2-3 gallons of dark green water with heavy sludge at the top of the skimmer neck. It is definitely working well the way it is set right now. FWIW#2, I went back to the full size airline tubing instead of the 1/4" with the Alita 40 airpump and I see no difference on the foam head.

 

[Nanook]

I went to take the bubble plate out today but didn't have the skimmer all taken apart I will try that next time I clean it.

 

[46bfinGA]

Does anyone have a link to where I can find a Hammerhead NW pump to purchase ? [/B]

I know MRC is messing with a Barricuda or Hammerhead NW. I saw it at Macna this year. Im not sure if they are willing to sale them yet though. I need to call Tim and see what I can get out of him. I think a bigger pump would do the trick on my skimmer. But I am not sure about you guys with the 18" bodies.

 

[Sparkss]

I was also thinking of taking the bubble plate out completely to see how it performed.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13522336#post13522336 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nanook
A better built pinwheel for either the Dart or Hammerhead would do wonders as well so we could get rid of the old mesh mod.

Here !! here !!. I couldn't agree more. I would be happy w/ the dart if it would stay consistent. If I adjust the water mixture to where it perfoms decently, it will cavitate w/in 4 - 5 hours (even if I haven't just fed the tank). There are some custom NWs out there for the Sequence, it is just a matter of finding a source that willl sell them w/o needing to buy an entire skimmer and pump just to get the NW. I can understand those that have spent time and money to design and build thoe custom NWs not wanting to sell them outside of a "package", but someone has got to have one that will work that would be willing to sell just the NWs (I scream optimistically).

Oh, and the turnover on our skimmer right now is is about 3X - 4X total water volume (about 8X turnover of the tank volume). I want to try slowing that down a little to see if that is part of our problem.

 

[Nanook]

I have 1000 gallons of saltwater, so my tank turnover through the skimmer is a little less than one time per hour. I could up this with an Iwaki 55RLT which is 1100gph, but that is not a huge difference and I am not sure it is worth the extra electricity and cost for a new pump.

 

[Sparkss]

I had strived for the biggest best, right now I will settle for functional. I really believe, as you do, that w/ the right NW they skimmers would rock. Scott focused alot on getting the power consumption down, and most of us at this point are willing to sacrifice a little power for more effective skimming.

 

[yeniraki]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13522513#post13522513 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nanook
I have a Panworld 150PS that pushes 790gph at 4ft of head as the feed pump into the bottom side of the skimmer.

FWIW, I am just tweaking or thinking of things that could make the skimmer work better, but my skimmate for a week was about 2-3 gallons of dark green water with heavy sludge at the top of the skimmer neck. It is definitely working well the way it is set right now. FWIW#2, I went back to the full size airline tubing instead of the 1/4" with the Alita 40 airpump and I see no difference on the foam head.

I wouldnt play or modify not one bit if I had that skimmers of yours. You can increase the amount of water you feed the skimmer, though.

 

[dew2loud1]

As you mentioned sparkss scott was trying to get the lowest wattage draw on these skimmers since thats what everyone seems to harp on more than anything with skimmers now days. I think that is one of the biggest problems. These skimmers are monsters as are the systems they are being put on and can't be run with small pumps.

Energy's skimmers has two darts as did many of bill wanns skimmers plus were force fed on top of that and they work great. Yes its a higher wattage draw but if your skimmer holds 100 gallons and your system is over a 1000 gallons than I think its unrealistic to expect to run a skimmer of this proportion for under 200 watts.

The bottom line is that a single dart does not and will not have the volute capacity to handle the amount of air that these skimmers need no matter how much is changed with the needlewheel and the bubble plate, the volume needed is at least the capacity of two darts or more on the larger models.

The modified reeflo NW from reef specialty pulls around 100 scfh which is almost double what the stock one pulls at the measly head height of like 20 inches, double that and it drops precipitously, even at 100 scfh your skimmer to get the "PVC white" look would need 200 scfh

Scott was making (I hope still is, I haven't heard from him in four months) a 25.5"x 84" skimmer for me and we had talked about two hammerhead needlewheels or two darts forcefed. I am working on the laguna 4200 as the volute can be increased to 6-8" and forcefed to handle the head height without sacrificing performance, ATB and a few others already have there laguna 4200 versions over 200 scfh which is well more than what two NW darts are getting us.

The problem with all of these is that with the amount of head height on any of the 1860's and bigger you are going to have to forcefeed to get the results you need.

It seems funny that needlewheel/meshwheel is the best technology but I don't think on skimmers this size they are the best idea now, aside from pumps like yeniraki, where they really have the power to push to these head heights.

Seems like the best idea may be the oldest as in what jnarowe has been doing for a while air pump and stones, because honestly if you're already forcefeeding with an alita 60 and up and feeding from the overflow or another pump why run another pump just to chop the bubbles up? Cleaning stones wouldn't be any harder than pulling the pump and cleaning the needlewheel.

I think these skimmers have massive potential but at the size they are built they cannot be run efficiently as if they were the size of a reeflo orca, the orca would fit in the collection cup of most of these skimmers.....

I think for a long term solution, forcefed modified laguna 4200 or equiv.

I've never seen a skimmer with the hammerhead needlwheel other than a modified RK2 so I"m not sure on any verified numbers for them, but they could be a possibility for pulling more air but still don't have the volute size to handle the amount of air that is needed.
Or running a second dart and forcefeeding both, or the final solution converting over to stones......

I'm messing with laguna right now and will look into stones when I get the skimmer, I have one of the original NW darts that I'm going to try to and enlarge the volute on as well and see where that gets me.

Sorry for the book been reading a while and finally decided to respond

 

[Sparkss]

don't apologize for the long read.. if anything give up some more information

I am starting to lean more towards a larger pump (w/ accompanying NW). I see where a second Dart would also yield better results, but a larger single pump is alot easier to deal with (no new plumbing/holes in the skimmer, no need for additional power outlets/cords to deal with, etc).

I have heard the Laguna pumps mentioned a couple of times, but every time they are brought up the converstaion gets shut down.

In conversations with a skimmer vendor he felt that the Lagunas were better suited for smaller skimmers, but from the data in your post I don't think he was referring to the 4200. Is there any information on acquiring and modding those pumps ?

I am also w/ you on not abondoning the idea of using air stones. They are the "last resort" option, but even at that I don't think that they are a bad option at all. Either way I am looking at throwing another $500 at this skimmer to try to get it to perform. I really feel that we could get some good performance out of a decent air stone array and a strong enough pump. From what I have read of others experiences w/ cleaning and maintaining an array of airstones, it isn't that bad. If I did go the airstone route I would likely pull the entire bubble chamber and bubble plate out and put the stones right on the bottom of the skimmer. IIRC none of that is permanently attached (or at least enough of it isn't attached to make it inconsequential).

I am sure that Scott has his reasons for not responding, but if you haven't spoken to him recently, I am not sure if I would count on him for a skimmer right now, but would have a backup option/source instead. Not trying to be negative, just making a suggestion.

In the mean time I think that most of us are focusing on finding our own solution(s) for our Volcano skimmers (so thank you for the information in your post )

 

[dew2loud1]

I sent him two six foot pieces of 24" and 25.5" diameter cast acrylic so I can't really pursue any other options as he has all my acrylic.... I was going to make my own in the beginning and decided to go this way instead, I hope it was the right choice....
So I'm really really hoping he gets back to me soon.

I think like you said everyone will come up with their own solutions and a lot of good information has come from this post.

As far as the laguna, myself and JCtewks I know are working on them as well as probably several others, they can be bought on ebay for around $190 or so. Then a volute can be made from acrylic or pvc, mine still has a way to go, so I can't really tell step by step yet.

 

[GSMguy]

atb is making airstars from laguna 4200s now 4000lph of air

 

[Sparkss]

I just got done talking to Jonathan and Sherman and they had a very interesting observation. We know that there are problems injecting too much air and cavitating the Dart. We also know that some of our Dart NWs are "touchy" to try to "dial in", for example mine will cavitate when I feed and half the time I wake up to a cavitating pump in the morning (when it was working fine when I went to bed). The observation was the orientation of the volute on the Volcanos. The output of the pump is parallel to the ground, pointing to the left (when looking at the pump from the wet end). This can be seen clearly enough on the Volcano web site ont he skimmers page (there are larger pictures of the skimmers ther than on the main page to his site). What with the volutes having been carved out to make room for the NWs there is the higher possibility of air pockets forming in the "top" of the volute as it sits (which is actually the right side of the volute, when facing it from the inlet side). I know why Scott built them that way, for pump performance reasons. The more pipe he put between the output of the pump and the skimmer body the more pump performance he lost. But I looked at the Reeflo line and all of them have the pump sitting "upright" w/ a 90 fitting between the output and the skimmer. So maybe there is something to be traded off/gained by changing the pump orientation ? It wouldn't be too terribly difficult since the inlet pipe goes through a uniseal, so it can be pivotted/swung down easily enough, the pump rotated on the feed pipe and a new set of fittings to connect if back to the skimmer (90 and a nipple, both of which I already have left over from the original tank setup).

So that got added to my list of things to try this weekend (barring some event that would prevent me from being able to set aside the time to work on the skimmer, that is). If nothing else it will set the stage and make it easier to change out the pump for a different model if we go that route later on.

 

[dew2loud1]

The outlet is setup like that so that backpressure is reduced on the pump, if you add a 90 than it will add more backpressure on the pump.
I'm not sure if an air pocket could be forming in there or not, I would think that there would be enough turbulance inside the volute to throw any air pockets, but it could be happening

 

[JCTewks]

I think that the 4200 is a great idea for these skimmers. Now, they won't handle the head height on their own suction, but they will handle some serious air...I've got mine pulling 6000lph on it's own at 14" of head, so I'm sure it could handle at least that much being forcefed (prob more like 8000lph).

Has anyone thought of replacing just the motor on the dart with a 3000rpm motor that has the same frame? I saw some motors on grainger the other day the were 56 frames and 3000rpm. Double the speed should give you more air handling capacity?

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13523761#post13523761 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
atb is making airstars from laguna 4200s now 4000lph of air

The 4200 can easily get over 4000lph on its own... it all depends on the flow/pressure bias that the 'wet end' is made with. The 4000lph one is designed for a skimmer that is about 40" tall while not being force fed. For those who are force feeding (so a venturi and pressure bias are 'out the window'), a version without a venturi, larger volute/outlet >> more 'flow bias' is possible. 6000-8000lph is easy then. I have said this before in other threads long ago, so its not exactly new information (just overlooked here), and I know its a 'no no' subject for me to talk about in general, so I apologize and pray I dont get 'moved on' by Nanook. Thats really all I want to say about that, and wont mention it here in the open again. But if it helps you guys, or provides you with some insight/ideas/hope, then thats what is important.

Let me put it like this, perhaps more in reference to the 'DIY Red Dragon' thread because you COULD just make it yourself: if you make the inside diameter of the volute about 5-5.5" in diameter, 2" thick, with a 2" tangential output on the 4200, with a meshwheel/fine needlewheel impeller and a 2" inlet pipe (no venturi), the 4200 should mix 6000lph with ease... somewhere up to about 8000lph before it starts to pass larger bubbles (as JCTewks has mentioned... heard about your talk with Victor on that one...:mixed: ). Heck, with a linear air pump force feeding, startup issues from larger impellers are also nullified (the impeller doesnt have to start in 100% water), so the impeller could be much larger as well... considering that, there is a good chance that then you are talking 9000-10,000lph.

 

[Volcano1]

So if that is a possible solution on increasing the amount of air, that still leaves us with having to mod the neck at the very least.I'm guessing it needs to be bigger, but does it ned to be taller also?

 

[JCTewks]

IMO, you are not going to get that "white PVC" look in a 24" body with only an 8" neck. The neck needs to be larger to accomodate the air it will take to get the bubble density that's required to "fill" the body with bubbles. If you want to max out a 4200, you'll need AT LEAST a 10" neck...12" would be better.

If you want to stick with an 8"neck, you need to stay around 4000lph of air....which will not have the "white PVC" look in a 24" body.

 

[dew2loud1]

The 2460 series skimmer should have a 10" neck, Mine will have either a 10" or 12", but I can't fathom a skimmer needing a neck bigger than an orca's body, I think that an 8" would be fine, reading above prostaff had an alita 100 i believe going through a 4.5" neck, it will make a "foam cannon" as many call it, and you will lose some adjust ability but overall should work fine.

I would like to see someone get a 4200 on there skimmer to see what it will do, if you guys could get someone to mock up a volute for you it would be easy to connect to the skimmer and see how it works.

 

[hahnmeister]

If you use a cone body, you can get away with a smaller neck (that was the idea with the cone body swap out). The idea is that you can set the waterline down in the cone area where it is wider, but because the slope will be 15 degrees from vertical... rather than a 'flatter' transition like normal that tends to disrupt the foam, so you can get away with a smaller diameter neck. With a cone, if you wanted, you could get away with a 6" neck, or a 5" neck in this manner because the 'reducer' is eliminated and the 10-15 degree slope on the sides of the cone can act as the neck.

 

[Sparkss]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13525056#post13525056 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dew2loud1
I would like to see someone get a 4200 on there skimmer to see what it will do, if you guys could get someone to mock up a volute for you it would be easy to connect to the skimmer and see how it works.

I am going to start looking for one myself. While I possess modest acrytlic skills and a basic set of tools, but I lack a CNC for any milling and/or NW creation, so I would be at the mercy of someone else who has access to the extended tool set required, the experience, time and willingness to do the work (and I don't expect anyone to work for free of course, materials cost as well).

So if anyone has any good links of a place to locate a 4200 modded and/or someone to mod a stock one (mill out the volute), then please either post them here for everyone, or if that violates any/some rules, then PM or Email me the links. I am going to do some hunting of my own. It also sounds like I should try to dig into that Red Dragon DIY thread. Does anyone have an idea/range of pages that I should start reading for the most current and acceptable method (w/o a CNC) to accomplish this ?

I don't mind doing some R&D to work out a solution that other Volcano owners can capitalize one to get their skimmers operational. I just want to get our skimmers working to their potential .

And the 1860 Volcanos have 8" necks. I can't speak to the 24s, nor the shorter 18s.