Water change if parameters look great?

[BigBearMD]

Morning all,

I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are on water changes if parameters are near perfect.

Alk 8.0 (Hanna)
Ca 435 (Red Sea)
Phos 0.01 (Hanna ultra low)
Nitrate 0 (Red sea)

The tank is a 32g frag tank set up with bare bottom and egg create racks.

I have 5 small fish and some LPS corals in the tank. I also added a new green bubble tip anemone which has been slightly frustrating because its foot won't attach to anything I offer it. Its puffed up and good looking though.

This is more a topic of discussion. I'm leaving town for 5 days so I'll probably do it tonight to be safe but things are looking really good.

 

[ReefsandGeeks]

Yes, still do water changes. Water changes aren't used to maintain Alk, Ca, Phosphate, or Nitrate except in small and very low demand aquariums. Their main purpose is to take out bad stuff that is accumulating that can't be tested for, and replace good stuff that is being depleted that can't be tested for. That's the simplest way to put it. Even those of us who dose everything to perfection still do water changes for this reason.

 

[Reefpuck]

+1...still need to do water changes to replace trace elements that you can't test for.

 

[jda]

Your rock and sand will get loaded up with bound phosphate if you do not change water to export them. The tank might test out OK because the rock and sand have bound some of that stuff and the numbers will seem low - they will stay low for a while, but eventually start to climb as the aragonite fills up. In the olden days when people did what worked instead of thinking all the time (to their detriment), the new water would lower the phosphate level in the tank and the rock and sand would unbind and it never filled up. Now, companies sell products and people think that since their hannah test came back low that they are OK and don't understand this relationship... or they grow chaeto, which while this can work VERY well will only be temporary without water changes since it needs the iron and micro elements in the salt to continue to grow... but the ball looks green and people think that it is still working when the rock/sand is binding phosphate again. GFO can work too, but this is not cheap over time and does not export other things like the harsh metals that come in most foods or add in beneficial elements.

Bottom line - change your water. It was the cheapest and easiest thing that you can do for a healthy tank for decades, and still is.

 

[BigBearMD]

Fair enough....every now and then you here about the water changeless tanks. I was curious everyone's thoughts.

 

[mcgyvr]

Fair enough....every now and then you here about the water changeless tanks. I was curious everyone's thoughts.

yes it can certainly be done.. (glennF)
Those guys are also VERY good at this and are dosing/adding specific trace elements/ICP testing,etc...
http://www.dsrreefing.nl/


But yes in general its more than just those few parameters you mentioned..

 

[Dugless]

My reefs always look their best in the first 12 hours after a water change. No other product is as cohesive to include such an array of elements, and most individual additives are much more expensive in comparison. I also think being consistent with changes and sticking to a schedule makes an aquarium much more stable in my experience.

 

[ca1ore]

I think for people who do none, they are undervalued; for people that do them obsessively, they are overrated. I have found 10% every two weeks to be sufficient.

 

[thaitopher]

Morning all,

I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are on water changes if parameters are near perfect.

Alk 8.0 (Hanna)
Ca 435 (Red Sea)
Phos 0.01 (Hanna ultra low)
Nitrate 0 (Red sea)

The tank is a 32g frag tank set up with bare bottom and egg create racks.

I have 5 small fish and some LPS corals in the tank. I also added a new green bubble tip anemone which has been slightly frustrating because its foot won't attach to anything I offer it. Its puffed up and good looking though.

This is more a topic of discussion. I'm leaving town for 5 days so I'll probably do it tonight to be safe but things are looking really good.

There might also be a lot of other bad elements like metals, etc.. Which get added into your tank over time, but for which you canr test for or get rid if other than by doing a water change. There is so much to a tank that we can't see or measure. I wouldn't be surprised if such a tank eventually crashed over time.

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[newbie2014]

Water changes aren't used to maintain Alk, Ca..........

Now I'm totally confused. I thought water change would keep those essential elements sufficient for reef environment, except for high demanding SPS tanks.
Some old school purist reefers even advocate water changes instead of dosing supplements.

 

[Mishri]

I think for people who do none, they are undervalued; for people that do them obsessively, they are overrated. I have found 10% every two weeks to be sufficient.

i'm with you on that one.

 

[Mishri]

Now I'm totally confused. I thought water change would keep those essential elements sufficient for reef environment, except for high demanding SPS tanks.
Some old school purist reefers even advocate water changes instead of dosing supplements.

sps and lps both need calcium to form skeletons.. how much you have in your system and system size and how often and how much water you change will all determine if you need to dose.. and you'll know because your calcium starts dropping and can no longer be maintained with normal water change intervals.

 

[newbie2014]

sps and lps both need calcium to form skeletons.. how much you have in your system and system size and how often and how much water you change will all determine if you need to dose.. and you'll know because your calcium starts dropping and can no longer be maintained with normal water change intervals.

That's basically what I said.

But to say that water change is not used to "maintain" those essential elements is over generalized and, IMO, wrong.

 

[jda]

Fair enough....every now and then you here about the water changeless tanks. I was curious everyone's thoughts.

My general thoughts on this are quite complex.

First, there are some truly no-water-change tanks from onset that are pretty good - these are pure statistical outliers and should be discarded. You rarely see one of these - I have never seen one in person and people have questioned the posts that I have read for accuracy, but I will take them at face value.

There are some tanks that got to be really awesome by changing water, and then after a few years the hobbyist used all of the goodwill and phosphate free environment to stop doing them for a year or two as their tank slowly goes downhill as that goodwill is used up to saturation. However, they are never around to mention the downhill part, just extol the virtues of no water changes a few months in and disappear when reality hits.

Third, there are folks who bought into a "system" or people selling a "system" that should be ignored. If you really look into these systems and tank, you will see things missing... the harder acropora all die off and the easier ones stick around. ...same thing with the harder Z&P. The average noobie would never be able to tell this and they are able to sell the "system," but the experienced can see. The best example that I can think of is a guy who did Dutch for a few years and posted tank shots before and during. His before tank was half-a-dozen years of TOTM type of awesomeness... then, his Millepora all disappeared... clams disappeared... granulosa disappeared... the stags, torts and some others were fine. These "systems" cost more and take more effort than just mixing and changing, who what is saved? I don't see the value in these beyond just trying to do something that cannot really be done by most people.

When the truly exceptional think that it is a good idea and stop changing water, then I will think about it.

 

[ComforablyNumb]

I agree with almost everything said here. I use water changes to bring up the elements that are depleted in the interval, and to get rid of some organics/junk a skimmer will not remove, no matter how good it is.

The problem starts to arise with huge tanks..like my bud's 410gal. Regular water changes (every 2 months or so or whatever) would be exorbitantly expensive for him over time compared to his doing his dosing regime. His tank takes longer to load up the undesirables up however, given the volume. He still changes some..and only does a major one about once a yr. Its a nice tank.

I would never discourage anyone from doing water changes in the right way.

 

[BigBearMD]

Thanks everyone for chiming in. Really informative.

I'm leaving in the morning for a beach trip. So I decided to do a quick 10gal change.

So glad I did. It was the first time I saw my bubble tip anemone hosting my clowns.


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[BigBearMD]

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[ComforablyNumb]

Pretty pic.

 

[ReefsandGeeks]

Thanks everyone for chiming in. Really informative.

I'm leaving in the morning for a beach trip. So I decided to do a quick 10gal change.

So glad I did. It was the first time I saw my bubble tip anemone hosting my clowns.


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This is the kind of stuff that doesn't show up on a test kit. When I do a water change, my water looks clearer, coral have better PE and sometimes a bit better looking color. None of the tests I've ever run showed any significant difference, but the tank does look better ,so something must change.

Water changes don't have to be this big complicated thought process. Just like eating dinner, you don't have to know all of the ins and outs of how it's good, you just do it and it works. Sure, it's interesting from an academic standpoint to try to isolate what's making the tank different with a water change, but in practice all you need to know is to change your water on a schedule and everything will be better for it. I've read up on it a lot, tried a few different things, but after years I'm back to where I started, still doing water changes every other week.