Way beyond my expertise...APEX

[zakk]

So I'm thinking of trying to run a 125gal in a basement, right below a 220gal in the dining room. I've got the 125 upstairs already (will move that down), and ordered the apex.

So what I'm thinking....is it possible to hook the apex up to both tanks, using expansion modules, and have it either a) match the parameters in both tanks via manual and dosing methods, or b) control pumps and water levels to allow me to mix the two tanks' water together via a pump and plumbing system?

The basement area is currently a bar with a walkout door. The plan is to offer up frags for sale to the public periodically (hey who wouldn't want to buy frags and have a pint at the same time?), while maintaining a main display tank upstairs. I'd like to be able to move livestock without shock or acclimation.

I figure this would be similar to a LFS setup where multiple tanks run off the same water, but I have no idea how this would work on different house levels... any ideas/tips/tricks? Thanks!

 

[Reefermandan]

Could you just plumb both tank overflows to a common dump which takes you to a basement sump and have a large enough return pump to support the return for both tanks? This way your Apex is monitoring all water parameters in only 1 location (sump). You would need to make sure you install enough return valves so that you can configure the return flow for both tanks independently of each other since they will be on different levels.

Just throwing it out there....

 

[zakk]

Could you just plumb both tank overflows to a common dump which takes you to a basement sump and have a large enough return pump to support the return for both tanks? This way your Apex is monitoring all water parameters in only 1 location (sump). You would need to make sure you install enough return valves so that you can configure the return flow for both tanks independently of each other since they will be on different levels.

Just throwing it out there....

I'm thinking so.... it would have to be a pretty impressive return pump for circulation on a 220 tank with dual overflows, but water movement could be done mostly by powerheads. I wonder if a 40 gallon sump would suffice for the bioload from two tanks (skimmer/chaeto etc). I suppose a skimmer rated for 400 gallons would be good. However, an outbreak of anything could be catastrophic (which means a third quarantine tank). Let's not even go into the fact that my clownfish are spawning every 15 days and I'd like to raise some fry... why do we get into these hobbies again?? :spin2:

 

[srusso]

I would say that a 40 gallon sump for both tanks would be way out of the question...
I think you want to use some larger rumbermaid bin/tub. 200 gallons for both those tanks. I agree though, the two tanks should be tied together.

To answer your question directly, yes one APEX unit (given the proper number of extensions) could easily be setup to run both tank separately.

Plus you can get into breeding clowns in the large sump...

 

[zakk]

I would say that a 40 gallon sump for both tanks would be way out of the question...
I think you want to use some larger rumbermaid bin/tub. 200 gallons for both those tanks. I agree though, the two tanks should be tied together.

To answer your question directly, yes one APEX unit (given the proper number of extensions) could easily be setup to run both tank separately.

Plus you can get into breeding clowns in the large sump...

Hmm, I've actually been looking into larger rubbermaid bins lately for making salt mix, but haven't been able to find anything that isn't really flimsy (even compared to rubbermaid stuff of a few years ago).

Having 110% of the basement finished, a HUGE sump is likely out of the question too. Do you think I could go with a sump for each tank (say 50 gal each), but tie all the water together with a circ pump?

 

[insomniac2k2]

Everything is possible with the apex. I was using it to control my 2 tanks for a bit. Obviously, you could control both tanks very easily , should you go with a combined sump. Put all your probes, heaters, skimmer, etc in your sump and your good to go. Central reading, heating, return, and skimmer is very cool. If you are not doing a central sump, then you would have to get a very high quality, long usb cable and extend a module to the second tank or sump so that you can get probe readings. Apex is very capabable of doing both. Although, i cant imagine Neptune officially supporting the long cable part!

As for the rest, it just sounds like a plumbing decision. Ill let the more experienced people chime in there. If it were me, I would tie them together for power saving purposes. But then again, I live in California. I get bent over by PG&E daily. Anything i can do to reduce cost, is necessary for me! Seems like you would want at least a larger tank.

I will be setting up a frag tank with this exact configuration in the next few weeks (central sump/gear). I will have to make extra efforts to quarintine and coral dip. Efforts I should be making anyway!

 

[insomniac2k2]

You could just throw your probes in one fo them and tie them together via gravity/overflow bulkhead. Its definitely what i would do if that was the direction i had to take.

Hmm, I've actually been looking into larger rubbermaid bins lately for making salt mix, but haven't been able to find anything that isn't really flimsy (even compared to rubbermaid stuff of a few years ago).

Having 110% of the basement finished, a HUGE sump is likely out of the question too. Do you think I could go with a sump for each tank (say 50 gal each), but tie all the water together with a circ pump?

 

[James77]

The Apex could easily be setup to have the tanks running separately with their own separate dosing systems. Connecting or controlling pumps to tie the water together will never work, you can not match the pumps or rely on them to do exactly what you want. Neverming the mess if one sticks on or something.

I have tied 2 tanks together from my first floor to a basement sump before. You don't really need a massive sump, although the smaller you go, the less buffer room you have if something does go wrong. I used a 55 gallon for mine....were I to do it again, I would go 90 or 75 gallon. That sump would need to be below both tanks as well....both displays would just overflow into the sump, with the return t'd off to each tank. I had done lowere turnover on mine, like 4-5 per tank( they were a 90 and a 175), and I used a Reeflo Tarpon to do it. You could up to the next level, I believe it is the hammerhead.

 

[PaPa_Johnny]

The Rubbermaid tanks everyone is talking about are actually stock watering tanks http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...ral-foam-stock-tanks-300-gal-capacity-2229935 this is one at tractor supply. Very sturdy, they last for years outside, we have one that is probably 8 years old still watering cows . Hope that helps. You can look for a farm supply place near you hopefully.

 

[zakk]

The Rubbermaid tanks everyone is talking about are actually stock watering tanks http://www.tractorsupply.com/livest...ral-foam-stock-tanks-300-gal-capacity-2229935 this is one at tractor supply. Very sturdy, they last for years outside, we have one that is probably 8 years old still watering cows . Hope that helps. You can look for a farm supply place near you hopefully.

Ahhh. Okay, I've seen something like that used for curing liverock before, had no idea what they were called. Now that's something I could mix makeup water in!

 

[zakk]

The Apex could easily be setup to have the tanks running separately with their own separate dosing systems. Connecting or controlling pumps to tie the water together will never work, you can not match the pumps or rely on them to do exactly what you want. Neverming the mess if one sticks on or something.

I have tied 2 tanks together from my first floor to a basement sump before. You don't really need a massive sump, although the smaller you go, the less buffer room you have if something does go wrong. I used a 55 gallon for mine....were I to do it again, I would go 90 or 75 gallon. That sump would need to be below both tanks as well....both displays would just overflow into the sump, with the return t'd off to each tank. I had done lowere turnover on mine, like 4-5 per tank( they were a 90 and a 175), and I used a Reeflo Tarpon to do it. You could up to the next level, I believe it is the hammerhead.

Yeah, the logistics of making 2 tanks work together, with perfect temp, flow, etc seems a bit out of reach. I've tried drawing out everything, but in case of power failure there would have to be 'normally closed' solenoids on the overflow and return lines of the upper tank, and those things can be finicky (I use one for a huge solar panel for my pool)

I think I can pull off the two tanks with one apex, but the best I can hope for for a mixed system, is a bypass valve of some sort that would allow me to mix the two tanks periodically, not as a constant system. It does look like the apex can be configured to do this fairly easily, but then that voice in the back of my head keeps saying that as per usually I'm making things more complicated than they need to be, just for the 'wow' factor.

 

[jimmyj7090]

The APEX can automate everything, but it cannot monitor Ca, alk or Mg. You will have to do manual testing on those parameters to set and then maintain proper automated dosing.

Two tanks into one sump would be one large system, and require your manual testing, dose adjusting, re-testing, re-adjusting, and re-testing.

Two seperate systems will require doing the above for both systems seperately.

A common sump also allows you to use one insted of two seperate; skimmers, heaters, temp probes, PH probes, dosing pumps, ATOs, and anything else.

Also, to save on pump operating $$ you could pump water to the 220, then have that drain into the 125, then into the sump (or one overflow from the 220 into the 125, and the other overflow directly into the sump).

Overall, if you can do the shared sump you will save a TON of $$ on equipment, AND a LOT of maintence time on your part.

 

[zakk]

The APEX can automate everything, but it cannot monitor Ca, alk or Mg. You will have to do manual testing on those parameters to set and then maintain proper automated dosing.

Two tanks into one sump would be one large system, and require your manual testing, dose adjusting, re-testing, re-adjusting, and re-testing.

Two seperate systems will require doing the above for both systems seperately.

A common sump also allows you to use one insted of two seperate; skimmers, heaters, temp probes, PH probes, dosing pumps, ATOs, and anything else.

Also, to save on pump operating $$ you could pump water to the 220, then have that drain into the 125, then into the sump (or one overflow from the 220 into the 125, and the other overflow directly into the sump).

Overall, if you can do the shared sump you will save a TON of $$ on equipment, AND a LOT of maintence time on your part.

I just now had issues with the overflows on my 120 backing up and almost overflowing the tank, and that was a matter of a filter sock being blocked because I stirred up sediment today. I could see the overflows from the 220 + the overflow from the 120 being far too much, unless I have 10" bulkheads drilled in the latter


Now ca alk and Mg is pretty easy to maintain with proper dosing, and I've already got the hanna alk tester (waiting on the calc one), and I've ordered a salifert magnesium kit (had never tested for mg before). It sure would be nice if there is an add on ca probe coming out for apex (I think pinpoint has one?), and in fact, it would be great if apex kept a running tally of phosphates, nitrates, and everything else (I can dream, right?). But I hear what you're saying, it sure would be ideal to have everything mix, even if it is just in the communal sump. I was looking at the spot that it is going, and I have exactly 4 feet by 7 feet to work with, without digging into the kid's play room on the other side of the wall. I unfortunately have to find new homes for the pac-man and golden tee 2000 games to make this happen

 

[srusso]

Your better off connecting to two systems to a smaller sump when having the two systems be separate. 4x7 is a lot of room, I wish I had that!!!

 

[zakk]

Your better off connecting to two systems to a smaller sump when having the two systems be separate. 4x7 is a lot of room, I wish I had that!!!

You mean two separate sumps?

 

[SC Reefaholic]

2 tanks into one sump is your best bet. A 100 gal stock tank would be plenty but I would consider a 6' 125 standard aquarium divided into drain/return/refugium sections with 2 separate return pumps and an external skimmer.

I am doing the same thing but on a MUCH smaller scale (65H and 20H into same sump)

 

[srusso]

You mean two separate sumps?

no two tanks into one sump, just make it as large as you can.

 

[zakk]

2 tanks into one sump is your best bet. A 100 gal stock tank would be plenty but I would consider a 6' 125 standard aquarium divided into drain/return/refugium sections with 2 separate return pumps and an external skimmer.

I am doing the same thing but on a MUCH smaller scale (65H and 20H into same sump)

Heh, I doubt I'll end up with a 125 gal sump, but man, the real estate in that would be sweet. It's going to have to be pretty hefty, just in case of power outages, to cover the runoff from two tanks. My one tank now goes 2/3's of the way to the top when power stops, so obviously a 40 gal is out... maybe one of those 100 gal rubbermaid, except that it's nice to be able to see through the sides.... hmmmmmmm

 

[hllywd]

Yeah, the logistics of making 2 tanks work together, with perfect temp, flow, etc seems a bit out of reach. I've tried drawing out everything, but in case of power failure there would have to be 'normally closed' solenoids on the overflow and return lines of the upper tank, and those things can be finicky (I use one for a huge solar panel for my pool)

I think I can pull off the two tanks with one apex, but the best I can hope for for a mixed system, is a bypass valve of some sort that would allow me to mix the two tanks periodically, not as a constant system. It does look like the apex can be configured to do this fairly easily, but then that voice in the back of my head keeps saying that as per usually I'm making things more complicated than they need to be, just for the 'wow' factor.

It should actually be very simple to set these up as one system. As long as the sump is big enough to catch all of whatever drains from both systems in the event of a power outage, you should be fine. I do think that balancing the flow to two separate tanks from one return pump could be tricky so I'd opt for separate pumps (unless someone points out an obvious reason not to do so). To do what you want it seems important to have the two systems homogeneous, making them into one system would be the easiest way to accomplish that. That said, the Apex is fully capable of controlling two separate systems. I doubt though, even using the same controller, you'd be able to keep them as close as you'd like.

 

[zakk]

It should actually be very simple to set these up as one system. As long as the sump is big enough to catch all of whatever drains from both systems in the event of a power outage, you should be fine. I do think that balancing the flow to two separate tanks from one return pump could be tricky so I'd opt for separate pumps (unless someone points out an obvious reason not to do so). To do what you want it seems important to have the two systems homogeneous, making them into one system would be the easiest way to accomplish that. That said, the Apex is fully capable of controlling two separate systems. I doubt though, even using the same controller, you'd be able to keep them as close as you'd like.

Agreed, I'd still be stressing out livestock moving things around even if they're really really close. I know I can get most parameters very very close, but exact, not really.

The big worry would be disease. It would be impossible to cut one tank off from the other. Something could wipe out both tanks...