Weird PH situation

[Elricsfate]

Hi all,

I want to start by saying that I completely understand the notion of making sure other parameters are correct and not chasing pH. However, I am having a hard time understanding what is happening in my tank, so I'm looking for some insight.

I have both an established 75 and a pretty new 180. My 75 has been consistent with regard to pH. It climbs during the day and drops at night. Back and forth between 8.26 and 8.06. Pretty much on the money, day after day.

My 180 however, is pretty much pegged at 7.95. I put a CO2 scrubber on the skimmer intake...no change. I added buffer...no change. In fact, I added too much buffer and got my dkh up to 20...no change. (And then I did a partial water change to bring it back down some).

I checked the ph with a digital meter, and got the exact same reading as my Apex shows. So I'm pretty sure it isn't the probe.

I understand that if things are stable that's more important than things being "right". But I am now trying to understand from a water chemistry POV, how is it that I am doing all the things that normally cause pH to rise, but mine isn't budging?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Sounds Fishy]

Hi Elricsfate,I am sure you will get better advice than what I can offer,but I have one bit of help,for now.If your ph is low,open a nearby window,if it isn't already,and let fresh air into the room.It will rise...you may already know that,tip.That is the total sum of what I know about,PH.

 

[Elricsfate]

Hi Elricsfate,I am sure you will get better advice than what I can offer,but I have one bit of help,for now.If your ph is low,open a nearby window,if it isn't already,and let fresh air into the room.That is the total sum of what I know about,PH.

lol Thanks.

The reason for putting the CO2 scrubber on the skimmer was to reduce CO2 intake. Which is what opening the window does. Though it is possible that I need to do both.

 

[Dhoggs]

Are you using a calcium reactor on the 180? If so, that may be one of the cause of the low ph.

 

[Elricsfate]

Are you using a calcium reactor on the 180? If so, that may be one of the cause of the low ph.

No. The only things on the 180 are a skimmer, and a BRS dual reactor running Phosguard in the GFO container and Carbon in the carbon container.

No other dosing or additions.

 

[sde1500]

Buffer would only temporarily raise the PH. Unless it is kalk, but alk buffer alone really has no lasting affect on PH. Interesting that it is lower, but probably not a problem. I honestly have zero idea what my PH is, tanks been up over a year now, ph test kit sitting right beside it, just never used.

 

[Elricsfate]

Buffer would only temporarily raise the PH. Unless it is kalk, but alk buffer alone really has no lasting affect on PH. Interesting that it is lower, but probably not a problem. I honestly have zero idea what my PH is, tanks been up over a year now, ph test kit sitting right beside it, just never used.

I am avoiding the temptation to fixate on it. The 180 is currently FOWLR, but the 75 contains the corals I plan to move to the 180 down the road a little bit. I have seen and heard some thought that corals grow faster/bigger at a pH of 8.3

I will settle for a stable environment. But I'd like to get a little closer to that 8.3 ideal if I can (without going nuts).

 

[Potatohead]

I would imagine it's because of no corals and larger water volume. 7.95 is perfectly fine. Once you get hard corals in there start using kalkwasser and you'll probably notice it going up during the day anyway.

 

[Elricsfate]

Well, I figured it out.

I added Prime to the water the other night because there was a .25 ammonia reading. Both pH and ORP dropped almost immediately. But, because I added it and went to bed I didn't see the drop until the next morning.

This morning my wife added more, just to be safe. I am sitting at work with my Apex Fusion screen up, and I can watch the levels dropping as I type this.

So apparently, Prime, Amquel, etc. cause a slight drop in pH and a BIG drop in ORP. I'm, talking about dropping from 360 to 160 in a straight freakin vertical line.

 

[homer1475]

If it wasn't for my PH probe on my apex, I would have no idea what my PH is. With an aragonite sandbed and live rock it's almost impossible for the PH to drop to an unsafe number. If it did the sanbed and rocks would start to dissolve bringing the PH back up.

I'm not sure why people obsess over PH, other then a few minor tweaks here and there(CO2 scrubber, opening a window, adding an outside airline to the skimmer intake) , there really is nothing we can do about it.

My PH hovers around 7.7 to 7.9. I have never seen it above 8.0 and I don't even care. If my ALK, Mag, and Cal are all within normal range everything is happy in the tank.

PH is what it is, theres not a whole lot we can do to change it without opening up a whole other can of worms(overdosing PH buffers).

 

[Elricsfate]

If it wasn't for my PH probe on my apex, I would have no idea what my PH is. With an aragonite sandbed and live rock it's almost impossible for the PH to drop to an unsafe number. If it did the sanbed and rocks would start to dissolve bringing the PH back up.

I'm not sure why people obsess over PH, other then a few minor tweaks here and there(CO2 scrubber, opening a window, adding an outside airline to the skimmer intake) , there really is nothing we can do about it.

My PH hovers around 7.7 to 7.9. I have never seen it above 8.0 and I don't even care. If my ALK, Mag, and Cal are all within normal range everything is happy in the tank.

PH is what it is, theres not a whole lot we can do to change it without opening up a whole other can of worms(overdosing PH buffers).

While I understand what you are saying....

If I didn't know what it was...why would I open a window, or use a CO2 scrubber? I would just assume it was cool and not do either of these things.

The fact is that it has been demonstrated at least anecdotally, that corals increase their intake of alk and calcium at 8.3 Thus, they grow faster. Does that mean I am going to spend ten thousand dollars and a million hours chasing a number? No. But if I see it's low and I can get it to come up some by doing something as simple as adding a scrubber or opening a window...why wouldn't I do that?

And if I can directly relate the addition of a product to a decline in both pH and ORP, why would I not want to know that.

I've never subscribed to a "less information is better" approach to anything. It's not likely I'll start now.

Lastly, my pH hovers (in my other tank) between 8.06 and 8.26 without me adding a damn thing. So when another tank in the same house, using the same water is reading differently...I want to know why.

 

[Potatohead]

Lastly, my pH hovers (in my other tank) between 8.06 and 8.26 without me adding a damn thing. So when another tank in the same house, using the same water is reading differently...I want to know why.

The easy answer to that is salt mix.

 

[homer1475]

While I understand what you are saying....

If I didn't know what it was...why would I open a window, or use a CO2 scrubber? I would just assume it was cool and not do either of these things.

The fact is that it has been demonstrated at least anecdotally, that corals increase their intake of alk and calcium at 8.3 Thus, they grow faster. Does that mean I am going to spend ten thousand dollars and a million hours chasing a number? No. But if I see it's low and I can get it to come up some by doing something as simple as adding a scrubber or opening a window...why wouldn't I do that?

And if I can directly relate the addition of a product to a decline in both pH and ORP, why would I not want to know that.

I've never subscribed to a "less information is better" approach to anything. It's not likely I'll start now.

Lastly, my pH hovers (in my other tank) between 8.06 and 8.26 without me adding a damn thing. So when another tank in the same house, using the same water is reading differently...I want to know why.

Oh I totally agree with you, I was just trying to bring the idea of chasing PH numbers to be anecdotal at best, and how you are trying to chase that number to be a fruitless endeavor.

FWIW I have opened a window, and added an outside airline. The best I could do was 7.9 which is pretty much where my tanks sits at daily. If anything I saw maybe a .2 increase.

Out of curiosity, I would assume your using the same salt mix, but do the tanks sit in the same room? It could just be a matter of where the second tank sits has a higher CO2 concentration.

 

[homer1475]

Just something I thought of, but would assume you already knew(just throwing it out there if you hadn't thought of it).

Whats your Mag at? A low mag will bring your ALK lower resulting in a lower PH.

 

[Elricsfate]

Oh I totally agree with you, I was just trying to bring the idea of chasing PH numbers to be anecdotal at best, and how you are trying to chase that number to be a fruitless endeavor.

FWIW I have opened a window, and added an outside airline. The best I could do was 7.9 which is pretty much where my tanks sits at daily. If anything I saw maybe a .2 increase.

Out of curiosity, I would assume your using the same salt mix, but do the tanks sit in the same room? It could just be a matter of where the second tank sits has a higher CO2 concentration.

See, productive conversation. No, they do not sit in the same room. And while I did use Instant Ocean in both cases, I used reef Crystals in one and regular IO in the other.

I have a tendency to read again something I have written and see that what I have said could be considered hostile. I did not mean it to be if you took it that way.

I simply have a driving desire to know what is happening, and why it is happening. I agree that buffer is not going to work. but the key is, it is *settled* in my mind because I tried it, and not simply because someone else said so.

When I have opened the windows and added the scrubbers, and accounted for the salt, and done all the double checks...and my pH is settled at whatever it is settled at...that will be the end of it. I am not going to take additional steps, or buy more equipment, or add more chemicals, trying to chase 8.3

But if I can stick a scrubber on it and make it be what I want it to be...cool.

In answer to your last question, I do not in fact know my Mg atm, but I plan to run the full suite of chemistry tests this evening (cuz Sk8r started a thread challenging people to do so, and I accepted.)

I do appreciate the input. I learn something from everything I read and everything I hear.

 

[homer1475]

I never take anything I read on these confounded interwebs in hostility(no old guy imoji). To me its always constructive criticism or productive discussion. :thumbsup:

 

[Elricsfate]

The easy answer to that is salt mix.

Yeah I figured that.

Gonna stick with Reef Crystals. And last night I consolidated the critters in the 75 into the 180. I think juggling two tanks atm is a bit more than I can keep up with.