What constitutes a Reef Tank anymore?

[doctorgori]

Since we really cannot recreate with any accuracy a reef in our tiny tanks, does our essentially artistic creations of a reef really need to conform to any idea or standard?

....Exactly...thats pretty much the gist of it...
While in a backhanded way I sorta snarkily take shots at the gaudy blue/yellow SPS tanks with the "minimalist" island look, I also admire the artistry and skill to achieve it...you can bet in a semi-hypocritical move; my tank is actually headed in that direction also ...but it doesn't prevent me from some self reflection and broader observation of the hobby trends

...and in the same breath, it seems there is a unwritten "hierarchy" amongst the various forms reef tanks take and ultra/SPS/minimalist/Island/rimless/blah blah tanks topping the list .... heck if you can also house it in a Euro-braced/LED/MP40 "Cube"; even further up the ladder you go...

...moreover I wasn't blaming TOTM exactly, but certainly it would appear to the untrained eye that some common trends are apparent as one trolls across the assorted Reef forums on the net ....and any keen observer will also note it appears manufactures are likewise taking note of these trends ...can't blame them

...I guess is there actually some imaginary boundary one could cross where the tank is so artificial its connection to anything remotely resembling a reef eco system has long since passed and all we are really doing is creating fancy shelving to showcase the gaudiest Corallimorpharia possible

 

[Paul B]

I guess is there actually some imaginary boundary one could cross where the tank is so artificial its connection to anything remotely resembling a reef eco system

I guess there could be. Most of the "stuff" in my reef I collected in the sea myself. None of my rock was ever in a store. From my diving experience in the tropics I try to imitate a tropical reef but from my northern diving I also emulate a "real" seafloor as most of the sea is, thats why I add what some would consider "garbage" in the forms of bottles, chains and cans.
I think a reef tank should be interesting to the owner and it doesn't matter too much what anyone else thinks unless it is intended for a store or mall where you would try to impress the masses.

 

[doctorgori]

...^ agreed...for sure

...but on the one hand while nobody want to be told what they could put in thier tanks ... if someone made "Bonsai Tangs" in 10 gal tanks cool, guess how many people would be doing it :clown:

 

[larrypoe]

.......I guess is there actually some imaginary boundary one could cross where the tank is so artificial its connection to anything remotely resembling a reef eco system has long since passed and all we are really doing is creating fancy shelving to showcase the gaudiest Corallimorpharia possible

I didnt know anybody had accualy seen my "spongebob" tank :headwalls:


seriously though, beauty is in the eye of the beer holder :beer: and as long as the person whos wallet is taking the hit is happy...then thats there "reef tank"

its not like false advertising laws apply :smokin:

 

[mussel and hate]

gp2 I disagree with your premise. We can in fact attempt to recreate a reef in captivity. The degree of success is however somewhat variable. Some aquarists dispense with approximating a reef and instead contrive displays that would never occur in nature. This is in fact the very essence of the question "What constitutes a Reef Tank anymore?

If i have a bed of sand and some fish with an LCD monitor behind the tank showing a loop of some lagoon patch reef would this also qualify? How about if I add in a single polyp on a live rock? It goes to definition via like/unlike. My example is more like a reef tank than it is a goldfish bowl but could it truly be called a reef tank without a single calcifying sessile invert?

 

[mussel and hate]

If anyone hasn't seen this tank http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2005317 it's an amazing coral menagerie and yet the owner feels it's not a reef tank.

 

[ironman187]

A reef-tank as I understand it is a FOWLER with corals.

All this bashing of technology is nauseating. The world is changing, many people don't have the time for daily dosing by hand anymore, and we have come a long way from the days where people were curing ich (or killing fish) with pennies, or bleaching water. We have more lighting options than ever, and as such, are able to sustain healthier livestock. That being said, my tank is not a showpiece in the typical sense, the fish are not just there for looks, they are pets, each one has a name, the corals, clams, and introverts are another part of the equation, some are pretty, some are not, but all are fun to watch. I don't get bent out of shape over PAR or PH measurements, if the tank inhabitants look healthy and happy even though certain measurements don't come up to standards, I don't stress over it. I like having a little HA in the tank because it gives the tangs and lawnmower blenny something to graze on. I lean towards the natural way of keeping my reef. I do, however, understand that our tanks cannot, and will never be exactly like a real reef, they are much too small to have the same balance, therefore, we must intervene, that is where tank controllers are a plus, they assist our intervention and help to keep us from over/under doing it and unwittingly crashing our tanks and killing our pets.

 

[gp2]

this debate has been going on for so long, we used to do this in freshwater all the time as most of our tanks were bare bottom species specific. Maybe we would have 1 or 2 DT outside of the fish room. We would try to scape those quasi natural.

My premise was not that we cant have a "reef-like" tank, just that we are so far off the mark of nature that who cares what is a reef and what is not, and that there probably is not any sort of goal or mark to hit. There are so many interesting niche tanks that people create for fun or the challenge or whatever. When you think about it there are really very few reef inhabitants we are even able to maintain due to the fact that they eat coral, etc.. Whatever, my tanks a reef tank. Not sure about my aquaculture operation but I know I sure love it!

My tanks probably like ironmans as I typically dont sweat the small stuff

 

[anothermineral]

Originally posted by Big E:

The designer corals & overpriced clown morphs are nauseating to me, because it's the businsss part of the hobby taking advantage of people.

Originally posted by billsreef:

With the designer clowns, again that started with basement breeders creating a niche market for what I would call a cull. Such trend in general aren't actually engineered by businesses in this trade, but simply picked up on exploited.

Slightly off topic, but since there were a couple of comments regarding the "designer clown" trend brought up earlier in this thread, I feel the need to comment.

The implication from the above quote from Billsreef that a clown variation such as a picasso, snowflake, etc... would be a cull in his mind is somewhat concerning to me. Mutation is present in all species, to cull a perfectly healthy fish because it doesn't meet the "breed standard" doesn't make sense to me. If the fish is unhealthy or deformed in some way due to the mutation, then I would agree, the fish should be culled, however, to cull solely for physical appearance alone seems to send the wrong message. We as a human society don't cull albinos.

However, I would agree that the price for these fish appears to be highly inflated, but that is a completely separate issue with should these fish be killed or not. The fact that the market currently has fixed a higher price on these fish is the supply/demand curve at work. If you don't like them, don't buy them, but they do have a legitimate right to exist.

I would also agree that insincere marketing (i.e. rare, limited edition, etc... ) is an unfortunate aspect of the hobby. The buyer should beware of these practices and do their homework before purchasing any pet.

 

[larrypoe]

one more comment on the designer clown deal:

get used to it


there are tons and tons of people out there who will have no interest or time to deal with the whole "reef tank", but will be drawn to these designer fish. esp clowns where the possibilitys are endless for new morphs and combos, and have proven to adapt pretty well to captive breeding. this type of fish.......large varity of colors and patterns...easy to reproduce in captivity (translates to lower and lower prices) undemanding on feeding (easy to produce a "fish food in a box" it accepts. these are the types of fish who will stay in the market for the long haul, as they have a bigger consumer base.


Its been the norm for FW fish, Reptiles/herps, birds.....pretty much any petstore critter you can name



you should also get used to better and better "fake corals" and marine plants to be manufactured........I would even bet plastic reef rock instead of LR..........mostly because it will be easier for people to put up a DT that looks real, albet takes far less work to maintain.


I remember the days when FW tanks were "landscaped" with live plants/ect.....and people tried to similate a natural enviroment type for the species....then fake plastic plants got better and better at looking like there live counterparts......now most FW aquascape is done fake. get ready for reef tanks to do the same

 

[gp2]

one more comment on the designer clown deal:

get used to it


there are tons and tons of people out there who will have no interest or time to deal with the whole "reef tank", but will be drawn to these designer fish. esp clowns where the possibilitys are endless for new morphs and combos, and have proven to adapt pretty well to captive breeding. this type of fish.......large varity of colors and patterns...easy to reproduce in captivity (translates to lower and lower prices) undemanding on feeding (easy to produce a "fish food in a box" it accepts. these are the types of fish who will stay in the market for the long haul, as they have a bigger consumer base.


Its been the norm for FW fish, Reptiles/herps, birds.....pretty much any petstore critter you can name

you should also get used to better and better "fake corals" and marine plants to be manufactured........I would even bet plastic reef rock instead of LR..........mostly because it will be easier for people to put up a DT that looks real, albet takes far less work to maintain.


I remember the days when FW tanks were "landscaped" with live plants/ect.....and people tried to similate a natural enviroment type for the species....then fake plastic plants got better and better at looking like there live counterparts......now most FW aquascape is done fake. get ready for reef tanks to do the same

Hmmm, this would probably be a wonderful thing. It seems this hobby has an incredibly low retention rate. I am always dismayed by the number of build threads later being sold off on the trading forum. I suspect many people see all the pretty colors in a LFS and just go for it. If people could have "pretty" tanks without huge losses it would appear to be a much more ethical approach to the hobby. Every time I read a thread criticizing someone for having a fish that grows too large for a tank, in the back of mind I always think "don't worry that fish will be dead or that tank will be broken down long before he gets big." Reef tanks are a difficult first leap for a novice aquariust. Plenty of people make that leap, but I wonder how many do not make it. A "stepping stone" reef tank would seem to be a wonderful option.

 

[Mike_Noren]

The implication from the above quote from Billsreef that a clown variation such as a picasso, snowflake, etc... would be a cull in his mind is somewhat concerning to me. Mutation is present in all species, to cull a perfectly healthy fish because it doesn't meet the "breed standard" doesn't make sense to me. --- We as a human society don't cull albinos.

In animal husbandry it's typically the back-mutated wild type animals which get culled, like a siamese kitten born with fully functioning melanin production.

Anyway, the rationale for culling these fish is partly that they would not have survived in the wild, and mostly that you the breeder is interested in the wild type look & behavior. I would definitely cull any offspring which displayed pughead, balloon, albino, or any other deleterious recessive traits, simply because I am not interested in creating novelty animals, and frankly find intentionally producing such animals ethically problematic.

That said I don't object to other people producing or buying novelty animals, but I want no part of it myself.

Also this...

I remember the days when FW tanks were "landscaped" with live plants/ect.....and people tried to similate a natural enviroment type for the species....then fake plastic plants got better and better at looking like there live counterparts......now most FW aquascape is done fake. get ready for reef tanks to do the same

...is false. Fake plastic plants are as pants as they have ever been, and I don't know any FW aquarists which use them. The current trend in FW aquaristics is towards nano-style planted aquaria with LED lighting.

 

[gp2]

Fake plastic plants are as pants as they have ever been, and I don't know any FW aquarists which use them. The current trend in FW aquaristics is towards nano-style planted aquaria with LED lighting.

Really? I gave up planted tanks about 6-7 years back, they are an absolute *****. I had a hard time finding supplies/plants locally and an even harder time selling plants back when I was in the biz (albeit 20 years ago.) IMO planted freshwater tanks were harder than reef tanks, and I never could sell my wife on one. It is great to hear they are making a comeback. One of my favorite things is a well planted thriving FW tank.
:beer:

 

[larrypoe]

In animal husbandry it's typically the back-mutated wild type animals which get culled, like a siamese kitten born with fully functioning melanin production.

Anyway, the rationale for culling these fish is partly that they would not have survived in the wild, and mostly that you the breeder is interested in the wild type look & behavior. I would definitely cull any offspring which displayed pughead, balloon, albino, or any other deleterious recessive traits, simply because I am not interested in creating novelty animals, and frankly find intentionally producing such animals ethically problematic.

That said I don't object to other people producing or buying novelty animals, but I want no part of it myself.

Also this...



...is false. Fake plastic plants are as pants as they have ever been, and I don't know any FW aquarists which use them. The current trend in FW aquaristics is towards nano-style planted aquaria with LED lighting.

hmmm that sounds strange to me, since of all the people w FW tanks I know (and thats a bunch) im the only one who still uses live plants on occasion...albet thats even rare for me.

the rest scape with fake everything because its far easier to take care of....and there is no chance of importing nastys (like snails). I personaly like elodea in my tanks for growing feeders (guppys/mollies/ect) but thats about the limit to live plants inside for me.

but then most of the LFS around here do not even carry live plants...and there is only 1 anywhere near me where I could get them......and thats 50miles away.

come to think of it............I cant remember seeing a live plant in anyones aquarium for over 20yrs....and even the LFS who sells a few types keeps them in tanks of plants only. Not that any of these people would keep up on "trends" in the first place :/

 

[Mike_Noren]

Really? I gave up planted tanks about 6-7 years back, they are an absolute *****.

I'm a pretty poor aquatic gardener, but my results have improved since I started using PMDD. I'm not fanatic like the high-tech plant aquarists, but simple plants are no problem.

hmmm that sounds strange to me, since of all the people w FW tanks I know (and thats a bunch) im the only one who still uses live plants on occasion...albet thats even rare for me.

I don't think I've ever seen a plastic plant in an aquarium except when a shop has hoodwinked some beginner in to putting a plastic plant in the purple gravel next to the fluorescent-green bubbling plastic skull in his 5 liter goldfish bowl... Plastic plants are a recipe for algae explosion, unless you keep the aquarium unlit or continuously bomb the aquarium with chemicals, and then what's the point?

the rest scape with fake everything because its far easier to take care of....and there is no chance of importing nastys (like snails). I personaly like elodea in my tanks for growing feeders (guppys/mollies/ect) but thats about the limit to live plants inside for me.

You guys have me curious now. Is the situation really that bad in the US? What you describe is like what I remember from the 70's; I would not have thought it was that different from Sweden.

(Besides, there's nothing nasty about snails. I think I have about ten species in my freshwater tanks.)

 

[larrypoe]

IDK what you mean by "that bad" lol.....but ya I honestly dont know anyone who uses live plants in FW, or any place local other than the 1 LFS who even sells it.

as for FW snails......there hasnt been one in my tanks for 30yrs..........hate hate the nasty things.

I never "dose" with anything..........in fact I havent done a water change other than evap replacement or stealing a few gallons to culture an new tank I was starting up, since I moved into this house 16 or 17yrs ago.

substait of either bare bottem, playground sand, or "creek gravel" sold in like 50lb bags at Lowes/Sutherlands/ect for landscape, is all I personaly use.....other than limestone for species who like hiding spots...elodea for livebearers...............though i would bet 999 out of 1000 local tanks have that painted gravel sold at wallmart and the petstores as "aquarium gravel" are scaped with plastic plants, and the usual "replica" rocks/logs found there as well.

this is all speaking from what myself, and people I know in the general area do and use.....and I honestly couldnt tell you what the "trend" is in the rest of the country. for the most part, people just buy whats avalible local when they decide an aquarium would look nice in the corner. I cant even name 5 people who have or have ever had a SW tank or 2 that have had a coral. its a 50mile drive to be able to buy anything like that unless you order it online (not usualy done unless its someones kid)

 

[Mike_Noren]

IDK what you mean by "that bad"

What you're describing is where reef aquaria were in the 70's too: no sand, no live rock, dead & dyed coral skeletons, and a handful of hardy fish.

I'm not suggesting everyone has to go high tech, but a low tech aquarium looks great and is easier to care for than a bare tank.

as for FW snails......there hasnt been one in my tanks for 30yrs..........hate hate the nasty things.

<shrug> They're the clean-up crew. Although frankly I think they add interest to the aquarium in their own right too.

 

[QuailHollow]

This was my reef in the late 80s or early 90s (I don't know but I still have that fireclown) it is also covered in hair algae. But everything is very healthy.

I am 31 years old now, but, this is just what I remember from my childhood. My dad had a 75 gallon glass aquarium and he kept a piece of white bubble coral and a piece of cabbage leather coral in it. Amoungst so many fish I remember over the years. I bought a little Tomato Clownfish for the tank with my allowance (yes!) and put him in the tank. That fish lived in the bubble coral until he died a few years ago. I was sad about him dying like I lost a dog! And that coral is still going. The tank was always covered in hair algae too. Still is, I won't lie. I now have a piece of that original leather in my 90 gallon aquarium today. (It likes to destroy pulsing xenia). and my dad STILL has that bubble coral, and he has 3 or 4 more pieces of cabbage leather now. There is beauty in simplicity.

Oh, and dad ALWAYS had to have an Angel fish in his tank. Still does. He's may have upgraded his lights to T5, and actually uses a protien skimmer now on his 125 - but he's true old schooler. He refuses to go to the 'frag-swaps' because he can't stand the 'sales' people and thinks they are ruining the hobby. When I got back into keeping saltwater, i could not believe how much it had changed.

 

[Paul B]

I am very proud of that hair algae covered tank. The long seaweeds (codium) I collected on the east end of Long Island and were not part of that hair algae. The inhabitants were very healthy and that clown is still with me. My tank used to get cycles of algae that lasted a few months then would leave for maybe a year.
If there is no algae in my reef I know something is very wrong, stark, sterile tanks are not very healthy as algae grows on every thriving reef. Now with the addition of my algae trough I have very little algae growing in my tank but it is still very much in the system.
This is that same tank today. That same fireclown is just to the right of that large bottle

 

[doctorgori]

^^^ you guys are bringing "warm/fuzzies" to me....

If I look real hard I got some pics from back in the day circa 85-87ish when reef tanks were just starting...heck just for fun that could be a whole new topic

you should also get used to better and better "fake corals" and marine plants to be manufactured........I would even bet plastic reef rock instead of LR..........mostly because it will be easier for people to put up a DT that looks real, albet takes far less work to maintain.

Sshhh don't say that too loudly ha ha