What free swimming stages does copper kill ich?
- Thread starter mic209
- Start date
Did you read my topic of the thread? Lol. I guess I should of asked, what stages area the free swimming stages of ich?
Deinonych
New member
Theront.
ThRoewer
New member
Protomont as well.
So the protomont is a free swimming stage like I was thinking? Thanks for clarifying .
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Deinonych
New member
The protomont stage is technically not a free-swimming stage. It is an intermediate stage that precedes the tomont (cyst) stage. Copper does not affect this stage to my knowledge.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
I agree
ThRoewer
New member
The protomont (= ripe trophont that has left the fish) may not be free "swimming", but it is free and motile to move around.
The protomont is in this regard just a fat theront and as such unprotected and vulnerable to chemicals (cooper, CP,...) and environmental conditions (hyposalinity) before it can settle down to encysts and become a tomont.
The protomont is also the most likely stage to fall victim to predators as it is relatively large and quite nutritious. Even fish may reportedly eat it if they can get a hold of it.
The stages that are generally protected are trophont (feeding stage - shielded by the fish's skin and ) and the tomont (encysted division stage - protected by the outer layer of the cyst)
The feeding trophont may be affected by chemical agents if they reach it via the bloodsream of the fish it feeds on. CP may work in this regard.
The fish's own immune system may in some cases also produce agents capable of killing the intruding theronts before they can settle in and become trophonts. Simillar immune responses may also be capable of limiting the theronts feeding.
The tomont (cyst) is only affected by extreme environmental conditions (heat, drying) or harsh chemicals (bleach, lye, acid) that are able to penetrate or dissolve its protective layer. Anything that is capable of killing the cyst stage will generally also kill everything else in a tank (at least everything you want to keep alive).
The protomont is in this regard just a fat theront and as such unprotected and vulnerable to chemicals (cooper, CP,...) and environmental conditions (hyposalinity) before it can settle down to encysts and become a tomont.
The protomont is also the most likely stage to fall victim to predators as it is relatively large and quite nutritious. Even fish may reportedly eat it if they can get a hold of it.
The stages that are generally protected are trophont (feeding stage - shielded by the fish's skin and ) and the tomont (encysted division stage - protected by the outer layer of the cyst)
The feeding trophont may be affected by chemical agents if they reach it via the bloodsream of the fish it feeds on. CP may work in this regard.
The fish's own immune system may in some cases also produce agents capable of killing the intruding theronts before they can settle in and become trophonts. Simillar immune responses may also be capable of limiting the theronts feeding.
The tomont (cyst) is only affected by extreme environmental conditions (heat, drying) or harsh chemicals (bleach, lye, acid) that are able to penetrate or dissolve its protective layer. Anything that is capable of killing the cyst stage will generally also kill everything else in a tank (at least everything you want to keep alive).
Deinonych
New member
Do you have any citations that state that the protomont is vulnerable to chemical treatments? What you state above is logical. However, if the protomont were indeed vulnerable to copper and/or CP, then treatment with those chemicals would only be necessary for 2 weeks. As you're certainly aware, minimum recommended treatment length for both are 30 days.
ThRoewer
New member
All treatment recommendations assume preexisting cysts and are therefore longer than what would be necessary if the fish are moved into a clean and premedicated (or hyposaline) tank. The cyst stage is the big variable - at least with C. irritans.
Burgess states in his dissertation from 1992 that hyposalinity inhibits the encystment of protomonts which then die off after a certain period (2...3 days).
How effective medications are on protomonts depends on the required exposure time. Anything that is effective within 30 minutes should be capable to kill or impair protomonts before they have a chance to encyst.
Also a common mistake is to assume that a medication has to kill the theronts or protomonts. It may be well sufficient to affect them just enough to take away their ability to infect a fish (theront) or prevent them from encysting (protomont).
With theronts it is known that they can live free for up to 48h, but are only able to infect a fish during approximately the first 24h. After a certain point they are still alive and motile, but no longer capable of infecting fish.
I feel that concentrating on immobilizing these organisms could actually be the key to find a somewhat reef safe medication.
Burgess states in his dissertation from 1992 that hyposalinity inhibits the encystment of protomonts which then die off after a certain period (2...3 days).
How effective medications are on protomonts depends on the required exposure time. Anything that is effective within 30 minutes should be capable to kill or impair protomonts before they have a chance to encyst.
Also a common mistake is to assume that a medication has to kill the theronts or protomonts. It may be well sufficient to affect them just enough to take away their ability to infect a fish (theront) or prevent them from encysting (protomont).
With theronts it is known that they can live free for up to 48h, but are only able to infect a fish during approximately the first 24h. After a certain point they are still alive and motile, but no longer capable of infecting fish.
I feel that concentrating on immobilizing these organisms could actually be the key to find a somewhat reef safe medication.
So if the aforementioned is correct, we could place a fish in a tank already having proper levels of copper, and allow the 2-7 days (7 days clearly in this case) for the ich to fall off and this be unable to infect the fish again.
Wish this were the case, so much extra time could be cut dramatically with exposure to chemicals we presently use. Thus quicker time to display tank for the fish
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Wish this were the case, so much extra time could be cut dramatically with exposure to chemicals we presently use. Thus quicker time to display tank for the fish
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I agree.
Deinonych
New member
ThRoewer
New member
It's always good to point it out. I've run into too many people who think if they do TTM they are safe from everything.I agree, but this thread is about ich.
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