What is the difference between PAR and PPFD?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9617529#post9617529 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zoos
So PPFD is more general, and PAR is really what i am interested in? that is how i am interpreting this.

No. PPFD is the quantity that is measured when we measure PAR.

This article in Reef Keeping explains PAR and PPFD in detail. From that article by Sanjay Joshi, PhD:
These three entities of interest combine to comprise the Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD), which is a measure of the number of photons in the range of 400-700nm falling on a 1 meter square area per second. PPFD is a measure of Photosynthetically Available Radiation abbreviated as PAR.

That is about the simplest way to describe the relationship between the 2 terms. PPFD is a measure of PAR.

Allen
 
So what I'm getting out of all this is that there's no way to convert the two measurements. Apparently nobody knows how(if possible) or doesn't understand my question. And I don't know how I can explain the question any better =(

If I have 1 bulb measured in PAR and another measured in PPFD, How can I figure out the PAR of the bulb measured in PPFD?
I mean, if it's no possible, then there's no way to compare the bulbs that I need to hahaha....
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9618817#post9618817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The0wn4g3
So what I'm getting out of all this is that there's no way to convert the two measurements. Apparently nobody knows how(if possible) or doesn't understand my question. And I don't know how I can explain the question any better =(

If I have 1 bulb measured in PAR and another measured in PPFD, How can I figure out the PAR of the bulb measured in PPFD?
I mean, if it's no possible, then there's no way to compare the bulbs that I need to hahaha....

You should pose your question to Sanjay Joshi in his lighting update thread stickied at the top of the forum.

You cannot compare lamps that were tested using different methods. Say 2 people take readings and give you a number in PPFD, the numbers are meaningless unless both people measured the lamps at the exact same distance in the exact same method. Kind of a long shot. Even if they did use the exact same standards to measure the lamps there is no guarantee one or the others equipment was in need of ajustment or calibration.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9618817#post9618817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The0wn4g3
If I have 1 bulb measured in PAR and another measured in PPFD, How can I figure out the PAR of the bulb measured in PPFD?
I mean, if it's no possible, then there's no way to compare the bulbs that I need to hahaha....

PAR if the ppfd of wavelengths 400-700nm.

If you measure PAR at 200. It is just another way of saying I measured the ppfd to be 200 for wavelengths 400-700nm.

You could also measure the ppfd of wavelengths 200-390nm.

If someone tells you they measured a ppfd of 220, it's not that helpful if they don't tell you what wavelengths they are measuring because it could be 200-500nm or 500-700, or 400-700. We in reefing care about 400-700nm, and that range is referred to as PAR. So when people tell you they have a PAR reading of 200 they are really saying that they have a ppfd reading of 200 for wavelengths 400-700nm.

They reason it gets so confusing if that you have many different people on the boadrs with different backgrounds, they layman (normal reefers) will say PAR, but the guys with a science background will correctly use ppfd measurements when talking about PAR. Really for the sake of Reef Central we are talking about the same thing.

I don't know if that confuses you more or helps.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9613692#post9613692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
No.

Those lights you are using might have the light more focused but as far as PAR, it makes no difference. The only thing is what the bulbs are normally intended for, that might change the spectrum of the bulbs. But if you put a PAR meter under it you can compair the PAR from that bulb to any other light.

Thanks Joe!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9619620#post9619620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY

You could also measure the ppfd of wavelengths 200-390nm.

I don't know where you get this. PPFD, Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density also refers only to photons in the photosynthetically active range of 400 to 700 nm.

Again my quote from Sanjay's article:
Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD), which is a measure of the number of photons in the range of 400-700nm falling on a 1 meter square area per second.

PAR and PPFD are the SAME thing. Saying "PAR" is like saying "light that is usable for photosynthesis". It is not a measurement but a description. Saying PPFD is stating "how much PAR".

They reason it gets so confusing if that you have many different people on the boadrs with different backgrounds, they layman (normal reefers) will say PAR, but the guys with a science background will correctly use ppfd measurements when talking about PAR. Really for the sake of Reef Central we are talking about the same thing.

Exactly.

Allen
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9620163#post9620163 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
I don't know where you get this. PPFD, Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density also refers only to photons in the photosynthetically active range of 400 to 700 nm.

yeah your right. I don't know what I was thinking. :confused:
 
Somebody finally got it right ;-)

PAR is the reference to the measurement of photosynthetically available radiation (400-700nm). Which can be measured as energy (Watts/m^2) or in terms of photons.

So when you say PAR you know nothing about the way it is being measured or the units used. When using the Term PPFD (Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density) it is clear that PAR is being expressed in terms of photons, and the units for PPFD are micromoles/m^2/sec.

As you can see from the units, the measurement is a function of the amount of photons falling on a given area (1 m2). As you change the distance between the light source and the area, you also change the number of photons falling on the same area. Try this with your flashlight by shining it on the wall and moving away. As you move away the light spot will get less intense, because you are now spreading the available photons over a larger area.

For a approximate point source of light, this relationship usually follows the inverse square law. ie. if I double the distance, the light intensity will drop to a fourth of what it originally was.

JB NY tested his lamps at a different distance than I did, with a different PAR meter. There are some small difference in the PAR meter, but lets ignore that for a moment. Since they are at different distances the data cannot be directly compared. However, using the inverse square law, the data can be scaled for comparison.

PAR values have no meaning, unless the distance at which the measurements are taken is known.

sanjay.
 
Thanks for the great explanation Sanjay.

What if you know the PAR reading was taken say, 12 inches below the light, can you then calculate PPFD ?
Probably a stupid question, but I've got to ask it anyway...
 
Sorry if I open this old debate ...


I made a table with the values given on some of the most popular bulbs on the market .. of course data taken from this site:
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/lighting

Here's the table of the BULBS + PPDF on the side:

there is much difference in PPFD between the bulb and bulb ...

I wanted to know ... the higher the PPFD is the best bulb?

or a bulb with a lower PPFD might also be better for health (growth and color) of corals?

thanks ..
 

Attachments

What boloney! PPFD vs PAR

What boloney! PPFD vs PAR

Websites, forums and my LFS tell me that good SPS lighting is in the range of 3-400 PAR. Right? So I buy this expensive Apogee light meter, download their program and take a reading: 3.1 umol/m2s. Come on y'all. How can they sell an underwater PAR meter that does not measure PAR?

Help me!
:uhoh2:
 
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